craigmeister6:I realized today why my frustration about the discussions this week have been so intense. To be fair, I have not read the book and I am relying solely on the discussion in the show. But it seems the author took the men at their word and did not challenge anything they said. The basic problem with that approach is that any advice based on something that is inherently wrong will be wrong and probably not be the best for the couple. So for the past 2 days my response to the issues have been to challenge the men's responses to the author's surveys and so challenge the ideas the author gives women to deal with these issues.
I don't think that is a valid method. To challenge an to invalidate those you survey injects personal bias into any study. One has to take ALL the answers, the general direction they are headed at face value, or why gather the information?
craigmeister6: The book I would like to see is the men's survey responses, what their real issues are based on a biblical world view, and what they need from their wives based on these real issues.
Anyway, here are my thoughts about today's discussion.
The heart of romance is thinking about the other person and doing something that communicates that you are thinking about them. The other person is the focus here.
No arguement about this.
craigmeister6:
Most of the men in the clips said something like "its not natural for me." What they are reallys saying is "It is easier to think about myself.
Are you sure? That's one possible underlying meaning. It's also possible that the men DO think abou their wives, but not necessarily in the way that is preferred by the wife. So is that selfish, or simply a matter of preference. Such as a man who makes sure his wife's car is safe, well maintained and always full of gas. It may not be a Disney romance to her, but he's doing that for her.
That's an example of someone acting selflessly in their area of comfort. While learning to dance, going to a chic restaurant or writing a poem, what the wife may want, is not natural to this husband. That's the impression I get when I hear someone speaking of doing things that doesn't come natural, not a selfish person.
craigmeister6: Thinking about someone else is hard." That sounds harsh, but that is the issue. Self-centeredness is the opposite of romance. They cannot co-exist.
Sure, but you have to be sure that's what you are dealing with. You already want to adjust the data for what you THINK is says. So are you sure you are suggesting the right fixes for the issues?
craigmeister6:
Another symptom of self-centeredness is "I don't know what to do." That means you don't know your wife and what you are really saying is "I don't care enough about my wife to know and understand her." Of course, if you don't care enough to know them, you certainly aren't thinking about them.
Or you are just simply overwealmed. You can't always assume a selfish, sinful basis for every response a man gave. Doing THAT is just as dangerous as any "bad" response (as judged by you) as it destroys goodwill between the husband and wife.
craigmeister6:
Also, there was mention of the risk of rejection or being shot down. Here is my challenge to the men - If you give up at any sign of criticism, no matter how harsh, it wasn't real anyway. You didn't mean it. Remember the focus is your wife. Suck it up and keep trying. Never give up. Figure out where you went wrong, ie learn more about your wife or check your motives for the evening, maybe, and give it another shot. In fact, keep shooting until she is convinced you mean it.
OK, so tell wives to quit giving up too, not just husbands. Never give up, suck it up, figure out where you went wrong is good advice not just for the husband, but for the wife as well, right. After all, wanting romance, and a specific picture of romance is just as much a specific outcome as many men want.
So if you are going to give this advice, make sure it's presented to both parties in the marriage. Try harder, don't give up, and don't have expectations.
craigmeister6:
Finally, there was the discussion about the "desired end point of the night". Men, the end point of a romantic event can never, ever be sex. If it is, you are toast. Your wife will smell it a mile away and reject your attempts from the beginning. It is the ultimate statement that whatever romantic thing you are doing is not really about her, but about getting what YOU want. It all goes back to the definition of romance - it is communicating that you are thinking about the other person.
And isn't the converse true? Given your advice, she cannot have a desired outcome either. The dreams about a romantic walk where they talk for hours, SELFISH, right? After all, if his desired outcome is selfishly about him, the same is true for hers. It's all about her getting what she wants.
So if you are going to suggest to men that they drop these selfish expectations, then you better make the same suggestion to the wives.
craigmeister6:
The wife's natural response to an envirmonment of safety, respect, and love built over some amount of time (not a romatic event) is to give herself to her husband. It MUST NOT be the motivation for the event. (And I do not believe it wise for the wife to reward this and "give in".)
And likewise, just because a wife offers a little extra something in terms of physical intimacy, perhaps their husbands should not reward this with a gift or a note expressing their thanks because they perceive her motives are not pure.
craigmeister6:
Maybe what the problem with the men surveyed is they really don't know what romance is. Here are some quick rules of thumb.
Or they define the specific acts differently. Men and women know the general definition. What they disagree upon is HOW to make it happen. Each has a mental picture and few share the same picture. That's not selfish, it's called being different.
craigmeister6:
The heart of romance is thinking about the other person and doing something that communicates that you are thinking about them. The other person is the focus here.
Sure, but if you do something that communicates you are thinking about them, but it's not in their language, then your message misses the mark. That doesn't make you selfish, it means you are not speaking clearly.
I can tell an Arab, in English how Jesus loves them, and how He cares for them, and give the whole plan of salvation. But unless he knows how to speak English, he'll miss the message.
So while I agree that men need to learn to speak their wife's dialect of romance, it goes both ways. She too needs to recognize that taking care of the car IS romantic if that's how he's demonstrating love to his wife.
craigmeister6:
Romance is an every day thing. It is like a plant or a pet. Sometimes you fertilize it or bring the pet a treat (nice night out or a day at the spa), but you feed it (or water it) daily.
No arguments. The grand gestures, the romance novel bodice busters are NOT daily life and some wives are expecting that on a daily basis. They are looking for the knight and the horse when he just took care of that little problem that may have left her stranded on the freeway. Some are pushing away their husband with the grease under the fingernails looking for the knight.
craigmeister6:
It takes effort. Often even the most simple things take some time and preparation.
Theromantic.com is an awesome resource for all kinds of ideas for both men and women.
I don't disagree. But you cannot just say the men are being lazy, selfish or whatever. I think the problem also includes wives that fail to recognize the romanitc things their husbands are already doing for them. The invisible romance.
God didn't send His son to make us happy, He sent His son so we could be Holy!
