FamilyLife Forums

Oops, forgot the first paper:  http://gcep.stanford.edu/pdfs/ChEHeXOTnf3dHH5qjYRXMA/10_Browand_10_11_trans.pdf

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God didn't send His son to make us happy, He sent His son so we could be Holy!

spare_parts:

pooh girl:

spare_parts:

OK, so if they are stuck, who is forcing them to drive at 75MPH?  Is that more clear?

  Part of my daily commute is on the interstate with the speed limit being 65 mph and I go close to 70 mph. The other half of my trip ranges  from 45mph to 55 mph based upon the speed limits in the different areas.

So, how much more fuel am I using at the higher speed?  I thought you get better mileage on the highway.  Actually, isn't that correct highway miles are better.

The point of diminished fuel economy is different for different vehicles.  In city driving, stop and go, it's the mass of the vehicle that plays the biggest role in reducing fuel economy.  If it's a large vehicle and you try to accelerate that vehicle quickly, you burn more fuel than moving a smaller, lighter vehicle. 

The more stops you have, the more energy you consume.

As you transition to highway speeds, it's not the mass of the vehicle that matters as much as aerodynamic drag.  Drag increases as a square if I recally my physics correctly.

If you look at the following paper, while about tractor trailer trucks, the physics applies to cars as well, you can see that at about 50MPH for those vehicles, the horsepower to overcome drag matches the horsepower to overcome things like friction and other mechanical losses.  You can also see how much faster the curve for aerodynamic losses increases, compared to other factors.

If you look at this page:  http://gas2.org/2008/03/15/car-and-driver-increase-pinto-fuel-economy-with-11-of-ecomods/

one will see that about 1/2 of the modifications have to do with the aerodynamics of the car.  The air dam keeping air from under the car, as wellas the radiator block and the smooth front end all contribute significantly to highway fuel economy, while the others apply in both city and highway economy.

Of course, going slower is the 100% free way of reducing losses to aerodynamic factors.

Those two links were interesting.  I guess, I always thought the size and total varied weight of the vehicle alone determined the amount of fuel consumption. It appears there is more to it.

Thought it was interesting too that the folks that study this even can come up with ways in the design of semi trucks to have better fuel usage.

So, when one buys a car (like mine) that states 34 mpg highway miles at what speed have they determined that calculation? 

 

 

 

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God has given me a really Good Man for a Husband!!! :)

It's Great to be a FLORIDA GATOR!!!

You'll probably laugh (or not, after all we are talking about the government) when I tell you the general information.  They operate the vehicle on a dyno to simiulate driving a prescribed course, and then measure the CO2 that is generated.  With that figure, they do some math, adjust for aero drag and put in a fudge factor and produce a City, Highway and Combined MPG figure.

The calcuation was adjusted for 2008 model year cars to be more accurate since most folks don't drive in the most efficient matter, some consumers were angry when they couldn't achieve the mileage stated on the window sticker.

Today, a careful driver with good skills can easily EXCEED the EPA ratings for fuel economy.  If you are getting the EPA mileage or lower, you either have some really bad roads, traffic, weather, or you are a really inefficient driver.

The best way to save fuel is to drive smoothly.  Accelerate slowly from lights, look a head, getting off the gas early if you see the light ahead is red, or there is traffic, etc.

I typically get over 100K miles out of my brakes.  I just changed the pads on my beater because I thought they were making some noise due to chipping paint on the backing plates.  I had about 120K miles on the pads and there was still 30-40% of the pad material remaining compared to the new pads I installed.

My wife gets about 30K miles of her brakes, and doesn't get the fuel economy I get either!  We both drive in similar circumstances and similar mixes of city and highway driving.

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God didn't send His son to make us happy, He sent His son so we could be Holy!

Some links on EPA fuel economy estimates:

http://www.epa.gov/fueleconomy/

This document prescribes the driving cycle and the formulas.  As far as I can tell 59MPH is the highest speed attained during the test, but I didn't examine every one of the 749 seconds of data points prescribed.

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God didn't send His son to make us happy, He sent His son so we could be Holy!

Forgot the 2nd link

http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text/text-idx?c=ecfr&sid=ccab9e991dc3344fff9261057c8e6e08&rgn=div5&view=text&node=40:29.0.1.4.41&idno=40]#40:29.0.1.4.41.6.13.21.32

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God didn't send His son to make us happy, He sent His son so we could be Holy!

I don't have a problem with people SUGGESTING that others drive more fuel effecient vehicles, but to demand or somehow suggest selfishness of those who drive a gas guzzler, to me that is socialism. My wife and I have 3 pickup trucks. We live out in the country and have a couple of horses which we occasionally transport. Imagine me pulling a horse trailer with a mini cooper lol. Plus, we are in decent financial shape and 2 of the trucks are paid for. If people would get rid of their car payments, you'd be able to by alot of fuel. There is plenty of oil out there, it's just a matter of drilling for it and having enough refineries to process it. Also some of the rising food prices are due to ethanol production. IMO ethanol is waaay over rated. Also the gov't subsidizes it. (if it was so great, why would it need gov't subsidies?).

spare_parts:

Seeking His Path:

Lostsomuch:

Why are oil companies making millions in record profits in the last two years???

I didn't read the entire post yet, but the real fact of the matter is that Exxon/Mobil has been averaging more than $10 billion in profit per quarter for more than 2 years. That equates to over $110 million in profit per day. This is profit, not total revenue.

Yet oil companies have some of the worst Return on Investment historically.  It's probably better now, if they actually have oil and don't just buy it on the market.

No one asks how much XOM spent to make 110 million in profit/day.  If they are spending 1.1billion, that's ONLY a 10% return.

It's a lot of money for profit, but as a percentage, it's not as good a return on your investment as other industries such as telecom, computers, etc that have closer to 30-50% return on the investment.  Sure, they don't do the volume of business an oil company does, but they make more per dollar you've invested with them on average.

And if Exxon cut their price by 75 cents a gallon they would make approximately $28 billion in profits in a year instead of $40 billion. Oh my, how would they ever afford to live?

Good article this morning on my Google homepage: http://www.wikihow.com/Reduce-Expenses

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"I will honor Christmas in my heart, and try to keep it all the year." (Charles Dickens: A Christmas Carol)

spare_parts:

Forgot the 2nd link

http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text/text-idx?c=ecfr&sid=ccab9e991dc3344fff9261057c8e6e08&rgn=div5&view=text&node=40:29.0.1.4.41&idno=40]#40:29.0.1.4.41.6.13.21.32

Thanks for the add'l two links. All pretty interesting. This second one I am still absorbing.  :) 

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God has given me a really Good Man for a Husband!!! :)

It's Great to be a FLORIDA GATOR!!!

Seeking His Path:

And if Exxon cut their price by 75 cents a gallon they would make approximately $28 billion in profits in a year instead of $40 billion. Oh my, how would they ever afford to live?

The assumption is that Exxon or any other oil company sets the price and this is not true.  The only thing Exxon or any other oil company can do is control how much they produce.

Oil and gasoline are traded on the commodities market, just like corn, wheat, rice, etc.  Notice they are going up too.

Investors are playing the commodities right now.  Money that came out of stocks and bonds is in those markets adding to the run-up in price.

The second thing, even if XOM could cut the price of gasoline by $0.75/gallon, that would be bad for everybody.  Why?  Well if you plan to retire, chances are you have money in a 401(k), IRA, mutual funds or even a pension fund that owns some XOM stock.  Gasoline is trading right now at a bit over $3/gallon in the commondities market.  XOM's profit margin is about 10% give or take on a gallon of gasoline or about $0.30/gallon.  For them to sell gasoline at $0.75/gallon less means they take a loss on that fuel.  If they keep losing money, they will not be in business very long and a lot of people lose jobs, pension funds lose money, etc.

That's far worse in the big picture than folks having to pay more at the pump.

If one puts it into perspective, if XOM is making $110million /day in profit, that's about $0.30/day per citizen of the US.  Now since they sell world wide and not just here, it's really not that much per person that uses oil.

However, since so many on the planet use oil, those quarters and change / day really add up day after day.

The numbers are big on the surface.  However, when you look at the scale of the operation, and not just how it looks from your small corner of the world, they are not ripping folks off wholesale, nor are they the robber barrons.

Invest in them if you think they have excess profits.  Personally, I think there are places with a better return on my investment dollar, so I'll invest elsewhere.

With the dollar so weak (also adding to our energy price woes) investing overseas is a good option to shore up your portfolio.

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God didn't send His son to make us happy, He sent His son so we could be Holy!

Ok, so oil execs had a hearing before congress.  Point blank they said the days of cheap gas are gone.  They said there will be a time very soon when the american people will think that $5.00 per gallon gas is cheap.

This country is in a recession. Economists can sugar coat it how ever they want. The stock market can't even keep what it gains for the week. What we are seeing now with gas, food, foreclosers etc. is just the tip of the iceberg.  It will get worse. Much, much worse. 

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I only floss when there is globs of food to dig out.

I didn't read the whole thread but spares recent post is exactly correct. I work in this oil/gas/petrochemical industry...even worked for an evil oil company for 6 years. I am trained as an engineer, and spent 10 years as one of those evil speculator traders of energy and commodity chemicals. I have a better understanding of this then I probabaly have on anything else.

Whining about the profits of "big oil" is a non-starter. It costs a few BILLION dollars to build a refinery. It costs BILLIONS of dollars to find and get new oild reserves, and they grow harder and harder to get. Go back as recent as 1999/2000 and look at the financials of big oil. Also, read about the taxes they pay, and the regulations they endure when nutroots who know nothing of what they do try to tell them hoe to do it. Thats been their existence.

But right now, the price at the pump is more then $1.50 higher than the price the refiner gets as the product exits their factory....called "at the rack" where the trucks are loaded. Then a central distribution point takes in the fuel (some by pipeline of course) and they make blends because again the nutroots think we need a different formula for gasoline in every county in the US so that made that law. Thats new....10-15 years old...and adds huge expense to gasoline. The distribution center is not a charity...so they add their profit and sell to the gas stations. Most gas stations operate on about 7-10 cents profit on consignment...meaning the oil company or distributor puts the gas in the gas stations tank and charges the gas station 7 cents less than the pump price on all gallons sold....so the owner of the convenience store isnt getting much.

Gasoline refining is not very profitable right now....was several months back...but not now. Its the oild reserves where the mega bucks are coming from. If you spent, put in terms of the family making 100,000.00 per year for round numbers, if you spent 500,000 to build a business, and all of a sudden its making huge profits for awhile after loosing money in the billions for years and years, and if the problem was more factories like yours were needed, but the gov't said you cant build one, then your profits start soaring, would you want someone telling you to stop making money?

In fact, if you work for any major company that makes a product, how bout we cut your salary and everyone elses by 20% so the rest of us can buy your goods cheaper...and those bonuses...cut those out too.

The place to look is your government folks. It starts and stops there. That is why we have high energy prices and why no matter who is elected and regardless if we vacate Iraq or not, it will stay this way until we build nuclear plants, increase fuel efficiency, and add refineries, and drill our own oild reserves. There was a time when all of those would not be needed.....we've waited too long. The old standby conservative position (and I am one) about drive what we want etc etc cannot continue. By that I dont mean take away cars or fine people, just start gradually making higher MPG cars....but faster then the gov't is mandating.

The biggest fear I have is that this is a sure fire way to shoe in socialist policies. Once it starts with gasoline....watch out.

All these examples do NOT imply that gasoline is cheap; it just

illustrates how outrageous some prices are....

You will be really shocked by the last one!

(At least, I was...)

Compared with Gasoline......

Think a gallon of gas is expensive?

This makes one think, and also puts things in perspective to other

things we buy.

Diet Snapple 16 oz $1.29 .... $10.32 per gallon

Lipton Ice Tea 16 oz $1.19 ..........$9.52 per gallon

Gatorade 20 oz $1.59 .... $10.17 per gallon

Ocean Spray 16 oz $1.25 ......... $10.00 per gallon

Brake Fluid 12 oz $3.15 ....... $33.60 per gallon

< /B>

Vick's Nyquil 6 oz $8.35 .... $178.13 per gallon

Pepto Bismol 4 oz $3.85 .. $123.20 per gallon

Whiteout 7 oz $1.39 ....... . $25.42 per gallon

Scope 1.5 oz $0.99 .....$84.48 per gallon

And this is the REAL KICKER...

Evian water 9 oz $1.49..$21.19 per gallon!

$21.19 for WATER and the

buyers don't even know the source

(Evian spelled backwards is Naive.)

Ever wonder why printers are so cheap?

So they have you hooked for the ink.

Someone calculated the cost of the ink at...............

(you won't believe it....but it is true........)

$5,200 a gal. (five thousand two hundred dollars)

So, the next time you're at the pump,be glad your car doesn't run on

water, Scope, or Whiteout, Pepto Bismol, Nyquil or God forbid, Printer

Ink!

Just a little humor to help ease the pain of your next trip to the

pump...

And - If you don't pass this along to at least one person,

your muffler will fall off!!

Okay, your muffler won't really fall off...but, you might run out of

toilet paper

GCS - a good substitute for TP is leaves ;-). If you are outside, you can also use a rock or snow - whatever happens to be at hand!

(I used to teach back country travel for a mountaineering group. As the female of the two person teaching team, I always got to teach "potty training")

 

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"More than that, I count all things to be loss in view of the surpassing value of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord...that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection..." (Phil 3:8,10)

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*No opposite gender PMs, please!

Gabby50:

GCS - a good substitute for TP is leaves ;-). If you are outside, you can also use a rock or snow - whatever happens to be at hand!

(I used to teach back country travel for a mountaineering group. As the female of the two person teaching team, I always got to teach "potty training")

 

Only a matter of time to get the potty stuff going eh?
I think its interesting to look at those price comparisons....the most outrageous is bottled water right?
If you could travel back in time the current bottled water market could be the punchline to a very funny joke.