FamilyLife Forums

I need to try and not respond to the personal attacks above. Ok. I'd like to have those conversations among men, but it rarely gets traction, and I wonder why. Thats my question here. If we men believe what we say we do, and we want to do something other than argue with women, even if there needs to be more and more discussion whereby we refine these opinions, discuss examples, form theories, whatever, should we not do it here?
I'm starting to feel like it has reached the point of diminishing returns up above. I'll take 60plus percent of that blame I guess.....the tone thing.....(but as chaz noted while the tone needed work, it didnt make a difference and a few of them just seem to , well, hate,loath, something,  for lack of a better word) Chaz has the most gentle posting demeanor and he gets it back in his face. Spare a little sharper then chaz, same thing. Alpha and his clinical observations get the same reception. So to adjust tone is a good thing, but clearly not because it impacts outcome. I did adjust tone a lot.....then got sucked into the personal attacks....my bad. But they get angry over the content regardless how its presented.

So, is there any interest in discussing why the dynamic above is the dynamic above? Any at all? If its me, tell me......let it fly. If its the stuff we say, lets think about it.

The reason I say all this is the discourse there mirrors the discourse outside these virtual walls.

First, its that we are kooks, seeing problems that donmt exist
Its that we are men, and spoiled
Its that we are showing how we cause issues in marriage (WITH THE ASSUMPTION WE ALL HAVE HORRIBLE MARRIAGES...caps a typo there)
Its denial
Its defensiveness
Then its name calling and assignment of OUR motive
Its seeing whats not there...the assumption that to say one thing that holds a woman acountable is haterd of women, the topic OFF LIMITS.....danger, do not touch.

Its generalities about divorce,

Its a complacency with status quo, which would be understandable. Imagine some men likley threw fits when women began advancing in society years ago.....its like that.

Anyone anyone?

This is probably a little bit beside the point but I would definitely say that you are hitting pretty close to the heart of the matter when you said that being pro-one gender is automatically seen as being anti-the other.  The overriding perception that it is a zero sum situation.

I'm just "mentally doodling" here, I have no data to cite but I suspect that this attitude comes from the time,early on in feminism, where with things that far out of balance that it wasn't possible for one "side" to gain without taking from the other.  Does that make any sense at all?

divorce in church:

I need to try and not respond to the personal attacks above. Ok. I'd like to have those conversations among men, but it rarely gets traction, and I wonder why. Thats my question here. If we men believe what we say we do, and we want to do something other than argue with women, even if there needs to be more and more discussion whereby we refine these opinions, discuss examples, form theories, whatever, should we not do it here?

If you want respect from the women...humble yourself, clothe yourself with compassion & sincere love.

Not that I have already obtained this...evidence; my divorce...but this is what God calls us to do.

TD&H:

divorce in church:

I need to try and not respond to the personal attacks above. Ok. I'd like to have those conversations among men, but it rarely gets traction, and I wonder why. Thats my question here. If we men believe what we say we do, and we want to do something other than argue with women, even if there needs to be more and more discussion whereby we refine these opinions, discuss examples, form theories, whatever, should we not do it here?

If you want respect from the women...humble yourself, clothe yourself with compassion & sincere love.

Not that I have already obtained this...evidence; my divorce...but this is what God calls us to do.

Ahhhh, that explains a little bit. If it seems I want respect from them, no wonder they react as they do...like Im bullying my way in and demanding respect.....I guess I could see that. But I am not at all after respect, not in the least. I agree with you, that WOULD get respect, but , I wish I could explain this is a way that I mean it, but I disagree with your approach, I disagree with it even with my knowledge of Gods Word, and love, etc. and I know exactly why you say what you say....and it seems very very "right"   and even "righteous" (I honestly and not trying to be sarcastic or flippant here at all)  but there, IMO, is something lacking. I don't like to use the pat example of Jesus in the temple, so I will think and read on it a little, but imagine that Christ didn't "turn the other cheek" to the money chan gers so to speak, and even during his righteous anger he still loved them. Somehwrere in that is buried what Im trying to say...that while I accept the comments on tone and delivery full well,,,,I do not accept that this injustice exists and mens answer is as you portray it. You and I will simply have to agree to disagree on that. In fact, since you commented on me I'll beg your indulgence and do likelwise in that I feel that you have taken your pain of your divorce into such a self effacing attitude that it reminds me of some Christians I know who, when asked how are they, say "Oh Im just a sinner saved by grace"....and kind of mope around in a funk while expressing a HUGE  miracle of salvation.....look I have NO idea that you are that way....I doubt it as you talk of skiing etc. and having fun, but these kinds of comments remind me of those.

Anyway I hope none of that was offensive...I didnt mean to offend at all. I respect your steadiness and steadfastness regardless if you want my respect or not.

I disagree that 'it' is about getting respect.  I believe it is about showing respect.  Christ's primary message to us about relationships is "love one another".  The bible goes into a lot of detail regarding what exactly that means. 

To be blunt, DiC, I think you want to control the rules of the game AND determine the result without much regard for other people.  I can't count how many times someone has given you advice on how to communicate with women effectively or how to engage in debate in ways that won't offend and your response is "I shouldn't have to do that and I'm not going to".  OK.  Fine.  But then why are you surprised at the result?  That you believe your methods are appropriate is essentially irrelevant in the realm of personal communication about emotional subjects with women. 

I took a negotiations course in graduate school.  Especially in international negotiations, the manner with which you negotiate can be more important that the substance of the deal.  For example, in one culture, showing the bottom of your shoe to someone is highly offensive.  You think that is silly?  OK.  Go ahead, put your left foot on your right knee.  But don't be surprised when the other person takes offense and walks out. 

"I shouldn't have to do that" carries very little significance when it comes to interacting with other people.  I may not think it is necessary; I may think it is ridiculous; I can believe that my tone and words are just fine; I can believe that I'm being respectful; it may be completely beyond my ability to understand the WHY of doing something or not doing something.  But none of that matters if it is important to the other person.  You may not like that... you may think that is weakness and 'men' in general shouldn't have to take that approach with 'women'... you may believe that women should have to do exactly the same thing towards men and it isn't "fair" if they don't.   But if you want a particular outcome and you aren't going to get it otherwise.... you have a choice to make.

---

You can choose your words to be a tool to encourage and build-up... or as a weapon to discourage and tear-down.

Seek first to understand before you seek to be understood.

I never said I shouldnt have to do anything....


anyway....I agree on the tone. I have issues with your content, not your tone. In the kindest possible way you immediately find the "correct" parts of anything unflattering to men, and the things unflattering to women you wont acknowledge because you want to put the post off to its tone.
You dont always do that, but generally you do. Fine thats how we are.
I speant 12 years in sales, 10 as a trader, and now 3 as a perchasing manager. Ive been to umpteen negotiations trainings as well. Ive been blessed to have traveled all over the world on business, and I speak a second language. Thats not me saying that I post here the way I handle any of those work things.
If you accept there is a difference between excuses and reasons, I;ll sahe my reasons....I offer no excuse. I never ever, anywhere, even in purely political discussions where decorum is out the door, encountered what I do here. Ive had the most intracted intense debates imaginable on politics, me the staunch conservative vs. the most liberal of liberals, and NEVER have I encountered the things I offered as examples here....the denial, the assignment of causes based on diagnosing my private life, the dogged rejection of things so provable that they are just not questionable....before you do it, be aware I am not saying everything, or most even of what I say is that kind of truth. I'm refering to things like the numbers of who filed. These are numbers that shed zero light on blame or fault....that is clear in their presentation, it is disclaimed in the studies and here, and the measurements are objective and counted as numbers.....then the answers...."I dont believe it", or worse theys ee blame in an innocuous numbner stating a fact and get angry.....nope, I nevber had that in a negotiation, in a debate, in an argument, never. Thats my reason, not an excuse.
As I admitted above, you do not always do this thing of choosing sides, but several here see that you do do it with regularity, even if you deny it. At least extend the same courtesy to me and dont tell me I am suggesting something so simple as "I dont have to do that, or whay should I have to do that" as my REASON.....read:NOT EXCUSE   to post as I do.

You have a perception of me.....we all have one of each other. Mine of you is that almost no matter what I say and how I say it, you will find whats wrong with the "man" part of it and share that. Again fine...its your view, Im not here to change it.

I repeat I wasnt after respect. I can respect a person in every way, when someone says that generally the sky is NOT light by day and dark by night because they just believe it isnt....I really dont respect THAT ONE THING.

Anyway its over, its pulled, and I'd hoped to seriously discuss the dynamics of the discourse not sit down here and defend myself.

Holten:

To be blunt, DiC, I think you want to control the rules of the game AND determine the result without much regard for other people.  I can't count how many times someone has given you advice on how to communicate with women effectively or how to engage in debate in ways that won't offend and your response is "I shouldn't have to do that and I'm not going to".  OK.  Fine.  But then why are you surprised at the result?  That you believe your methods are appropriate is essentially irrelevant in the realm of personal communication about emotional subjects with women.

Holten,
I appologize if you feel that what I'm about to say weakens your message to DiC in terms of tone because I do believe to some extent that you have a valid point in terms of tone.

But while I would absolutely agree that anyone other than possibly Christ himself can always improve their communication in terms of tone and other things in order to help others receive their message without offense, I absolutely do not believe tone to be the primary problem in this case. Given that different tone and all sorts of explanations as to actual meaning have been tried, by more than one person, I believe there to be some significant issue with the content.

DiC, PLEASE PLEASE don't take what I just said as validation to not continue to try to work on improving tone and delivery becuase anything that makes even a small increase in listening and understanding is worth the effort even if there are other, larger things acting as barriers.

Chaz, as usual, you came with a decent balance and solid recommendation. I say "as usual" because it speaks to your point. You were also accused of hating and blaming and all that....with your even keel tone.
Mine brought more anger, but you also got the same content in the blowback.

Thats why I tried to explain to him that I've seriously never seen anything like that before in my life on any issue. I found it easier to debate my teenage daughter and son and as if I was connecting more even in very emotional arguments. They never came back with that they didn't believe black was black and white was white, just because they didnt believe it. 

If you take the threads I'd start, some my own words, some were articles, and read the other forums I post in and see the discourse thereafter, men and women, it looks absolutely nothing like this here. Its spirited, even anger time to time, but never is there such intractable rejection of certain things that are indeed not subject to opinion, but are demonstrable fact.

I made that "vow" to temper tone, and for several weeks largely suceeded. I'll add that I maintained that even in the onslaught of one poster who popped up in every thread where I would politely disagree...POLITELY (Holton you even said it was ok, thats not been more then a week ago...which is another thing about this post that doesnt compute because you made no effort to qualify your assertions by saying it had slipped back...you just plowed in like it never changed) and mentioned a lack of fruit....implying that I'd vowed to never even disagree again, which was clearly not the case, I'd vowed to not be so sharp.

I didn't see anyone jumping in saying anything. For the record, I do not mean that in that childish "she started it" way at all. I'm back on the double standard thing. Its another of the things that are frustrating. Deference to others, deference to women, you have no idea how I am in person. One place where I'd like to see us all equally treated and equally accountable would be on an anonymous forum. If men are held to a higher standard then men may as well not participate at all. Especially Holten you pop up and take exceptions to disagreeing with them, even if its done politely, as I said you find the small thing bad about a man that may be true, highlight that, then diminish the accuracy of any holding of women accountable by saying that goes on both ways or something like that.

Not that it matters but I am sure there are those who truly think DIC ruined the forum, he killed it off, and I just don't carry that water at all.....alone. I submit that I could clinically approach every topic, and never respond to the silly personal attacks (which I tried to avoid making) and still we'd be as we are.

I tried to convice one person on PM that I was all about concepts, that I condemned concepts, and was told NO, I was condemning individuals, judging them. That my tone is judgemental is one thing, but there we go again the reader telling me WHAT I am judging.

There is a whole lot more goin on than rude posting.....not much of it any better or worse then the rest. I own mine....even admited, tried to fix, failed maybe, would try again.

But the other forums where I see these things discussed, while they will go through the stages of denial, and defensiveness and all that, they can get to a point where finally one can qualify their statements sufficiently that they are not being taken wrong. here we NEVER succeeded to get past that wall.

Chaz,

Any message you have for DiC or anyone is yours... it is what it is.  That my opinion may be different is what IT is.  The reader has to discern.

Chaz and DiC,

Chaz, you said there "could be" some significant disagreement on content.  I agree.  I doubt all of us here, men or women, share completely the same opinions across the board.  That is quite obvious on hot topics like divorce, remarriage, etc.  Emotions can come into play and when that happens the possibility of arguments and communications problems increases greatly. 

Note, however, how often threads change from the initial content (WHAT is being said) to a discussion or debate or argument over HOW something is said.  It isn't unlike marriage, when the partners start fighting about how they are fighting rather than anything of substance.  Accusations of being rude, disrespectful, etc, are usually about delivery, not content.

But at least when I am (or try hard to be) respectful, polite, kind, compassionate, etc, in my delivery, I have a better chance of discerning that any reaction IS about content.  Again, same thing with marriage.. my wife and I have both learned, and are still learning, that often how something is said - word choice, tone, timing, circumstances - can almost completely determine reaction apart from the actual information being said.

Honestly - do you think that a reply that starts out "ARE YOU SERIOUS??  DID YOU EVEN READ THE QUESTION??" etc, is going to be well received, regardless of the validity of the content?

If one woman tells me I'm attacking women, I can maybe dismiss it.  If two tell me, each under different circumstances, I might wonder.  If ten tell me then I think I'd start wondering what it is *I* was doing. 

Chaz, you said:  Given that different tone and all sorts of explanations as to actual meaning have been tried, by more than one person, I believe there to be some significant issue with the content. 

What exactly does that mean?  What is the significance?  By "issue with the content" do you mean disagreement?  Does that mean you think many of the women here plain old don't agree with some of the opinions you're talking about?  Or do you mean something different?  If it is just plain old disagreement, what is the problem?  If several people have said the same thing over and over and received the same reaction, then maybe it is time to agree to disagree and drop it.

To the point of something I know you find very irritating - saying something, being misunderstood, trying to explain, and having the explanation rejected...   I go back to the same analogy... if one person consistently misunderstands me and doesn't believe me when I explain my real meaning, then the problem could be them...  if that becomes a pattern and happens over and over with multiple listeners on myriad topics, then I think the speaker, 1) would give some thought to their delivery; and 2) would expect that after so many times, the explanations are becoming trite and unbelievable. 

How many times can a spouse be insensitive and hurtful, and attempt to explain that isn't what they meant, before the explanations become questionable?  If you keep yelling at your kids day after day and week after week, and always say "I didn't mean to yell"... how long before your kids would think that actually you did mean to yell? 

If we're being up front here - I honestly believe you guys do not have an accurate view of the environment that you've had a part in creating.  Intent very often loses out to reality and actual patterns.

---

You can choose your words to be a tool to encourage and build-up... or as a weapon to discourage and tear-down.

Seek first to understand before you seek to be understood.

divorce in church:

I never said I shouldnt have to do anything....


anyway....I agree on the tone. I have issues with your content, not your tone. In the kindest possible way you immediately find the "correct" parts of anything unflattering to men, and the things unflattering to women you wont acknowledge because you want to put the post off to its tone.
You dont always do that, but generally you do. Fine thats how we are.
I speant 12 years in sales, 10 as a trader, and now 3 as a perchasing manager. Ive been to umpteen negotiations trainings as well. Ive been blessed to have traveled all over the world on business, and I speak a second language. Thats not me saying that I post here the way I handle any of those work things.
If you accept there is a difference between excuses and reasons, I;ll sahe my reasons....I offer no excuse. I never ever, anywhere, even in purely political discussions where decorum is out the door, encountered what I do here. Ive had the most intracted intense debates imaginable on politics, me the staunch conservative vs. the most liberal of liberals, and NEVER have I encountered the things I offered as examples here....the denial, the assignment of causes based on diagnosing my private life, the dogged rejection of things so provable that they are just not questionable....before you do it, be aware I am not saying everything, or most even of what I say is that kind of truth. I'm refering to things like the numbers of who filed. These are numbers that shed zero light on blame or fault....that is clear in their presentation, it is disclaimed in the studies and here, and the measurements are objective and counted as numbers.....then the answers...."I dont believe it", or worse theys ee blame in an innocuous numbner stating a fact and get angry.....nope, I nevber had that in a negotiation, in a debate, in an argument, never. Thats my reason, not an excuse.
As I admitted above, you do not always do this thing of choosing sides, but several here see that you do do it with regularity, even if you deny it. At least extend the same courtesy to me and dont tell me I am suggesting something so simple as "I dont have to do that, or whay should I have to do that" as my REASON.....read:NOT EXCUSE   to post as I do.

You have a perception of me.....we all have one of each other. Mine of you is that almost no matter what I say and how I say it, you will find whats wrong with the "man" part of it and share that. Again fine...its your view, Im not here to change it.

I repeat I wasnt after respect. I can respect a person in every way, when someone says that generally the sky is NOT light by day and dark by night because they just believe it isnt....I really dont respect THAT ONE THING.

Anyway its over, its pulled, and I'd hoped to seriously discuss the dynamics of the discourse not sit down here and defend myself.

 

Apparently, your conviction from God about your behavior was short lived.  Pride and arrogance seep from your postings. 

The people on this forum come for fellowship, edification, and help with personal problems.  You sow discord and anger. 

Holten tried very respectfully to give you sound advice and yet you just had to respond how YOU and YOU alone are right.  Holten tried to explain how he understands communication with people due to his negotiation course.  What was your response?  To one up him.  Show him that you are the top dog.  "I speant 12 years in sales, 10 as a trader, and now 3 as a perchasing manager. Ive been to umpteen negotiations trainings as well. Ive been blessed to have traveled all over the world on business, and I speak a second language."  Why post this?  Why were you unable to just take his advice and try to learn from it?  Why the need to place yourself on a pedestal?  Show how YOU are right, once again?  Pride.  Arrogance.

 Lack of humility.  You did the exact same thing to Rocco's Mom.  She respectfully tried to explain statistics to you because she had done graduate work in that field.  Your reply was to explain YOUR credentials.  How YOU knew about statistics.  You tried to one up her as well.  Show how YOU were right and she was wrong.  You saying that you are now an expert on negotiations as well as statistics?

Do you gain some type of pleasure from sowing discord and strife amoung Christians?  Since coming to this forum that seems to be your goal.  Now you have helped to shut down the Marriage forum by causing strife. 

You have posted 1000+ posts since 4-22-08.  Besides being extremely excessive in the shear amount of posts,  none are edifying or uplifting.  All tear down and seek to cause dissention.  This is not the behavior of a man that loves God.  The greatest commandment is to love God and second is to love our neighbors as ourselves.  You treat your neighbors, the people on this forum, with contempt.  Disrepect drips from your postings.  There is no love or compassion.  No humility.   

I highly recommend that you walk away from the computer and humble yourself before God.  Take the excessive time that you sit at the computer posting and seek God instead.  Go to the Lord in prayer and read His word instead of pummeling people with your pride and arrogance.

I pray that you will start seeking God instead of seeking to be right. 

I can only imagine that you will rattle off a reply that will defend yourself.  How you are right yet again and I'm completely wrong.  Probably add in a few insult as well.  I will not engage in a battle of words with you.  I'm just calling a spade a spade and leaving it at that. 

The truth of the matter is, I don't care what word you throw at me.  They mean nothing.  I am just saddened and angered that you have sown so much discord on this forum.  People are leaving.  The Marriage Forum is shut down.

The weight of the world and our society itself is hard enough to live in.  Almost on a daily basis I hear of another tragedy or some type of problem in society.  People struggle with pain and problems in their personal lives.  We are supposed to be the Body of Christ.  His arms.  His legs.  We are supposed to be reaching out to the lost.  Why would the lost want any part of Christianity if all they witness is dissention and strife?  Imagine if a non-Christian came here seeking  help and they read all of discord here?  Would this seem like a soft place to fall in order to get Godly advice and help?   No, it wouldn't.   The Body of Christ is also supposed to be edifying each other and loving one another.  Where is your love and edification, DIC?  I don't see it in your words.  It's a shame. 

              

 

         

Holten:

Chaz, you said:  Given that different tone and all sorts of explanations as to actual meaning have been tried, by more than one person, I believe there to be some significant issue with the content. 

What exactly does that mean?  What is the significance?  By "issue with the content" do you mean disagreement?  Does that mean you think many of the women here plain old don't agree with some of the opinions you're talking about?  Or do you mean something different?  If it is just plain old disagreement, what is the problem?  If several people have said the same thing over and over and received the same reaction, then maybe it is time to agree to disagree and drop it.

I'm going to be very blunt and straightforward about what I believe at the risk of sounding like a real jerk.  I absolutely believe that we're talking about a situation where, for some reason that I can't quite understand,certain individuals simply cannot accept undeniable,objective,proveable facts, maybe because it makes them uncomfortable, maybe for some other reason. The thing about just accepting it as disagreement is that what is being said is not what is being disagreed with.  And it happens consistantly enough and similarly enough that I don't believe it to be honest misunderstanding in most cases.  What I truly beleive is happening is that something that can't really be denied is raised, that fact makes someone uncomfortable and since they can't deny it, they misrepresent it into something that they can attack and dismiss. 

Speaking specifically to the usual topic, I believe that consiously or not, many of the women around here see anything that questions the rightousness of any women, or that seeks to challenge the widely held notion that men are far more responsible for society's ills than women are, as some sort of attack or some sort of desire to go back to when women were widely oppressd.

Holten:

To the point of something I know you find very irritating - saying something, being misunderstood, trying to explain, and having the explanation rejected...   I go back to the same analogy... if one person consistently misunderstands me and doesn't believe me when I explain my real meaning, then the problem could be them...  if that becomes a pattern and happens over and over with multiple listeners on myriad topics, then I think the speaker, 1) would give some thought to their delivery; and 2) would expect that after so many times, the explanations are becoming trite and unbelievable. 

I agree in principle with your thinking that if misunderstanding is consistant that the speaker needs to examine the possbility that they could do things differently.   And in fact I said that very thing to HPK many times. But in that case I do beleive that it was primarily tone and style because often, when I said the same basic thing, but in a different way, it was understood and accepted, and even often agreed with.

However, look at what has happened here with the same basic content but 2 very different delivery styles(me and DiC).
 The reaction and the missed points are nearly identical despite very different ways that the same basic content was delivered. That's why I have concluded that it is more about the content than about the delivery.

Fair enough, Chaz.  I may reply with more depth to some of the things you said (I probably will), but at this point I wanted to acknowledge your reply.

 

---

You can choose your words to be a tool to encourage and build-up... or as a weapon to discourage and tear-down.

Seek first to understand before you seek to be understood.

thetruthhurts:

divorce in church:

I never said I shouldnt have to do anything....


anyway....I agree on the tone. I have issues with your content, not your tone. In the kindest possible way you immediately find the "correct" parts of anything unflattering to men, and the things unflattering to women you wont acknowledge because you want to put the post off to its tone.
You dont always do that, but generally you do. Fine thats how we are.
I speant 12 years in sales, 10 as a trader, and now 3 as a perchasing manager. Ive been to umpteen negotiations trainings as well. Ive been blessed to have traveled all over the world on business, and I speak a second language. Thats not me saying that I post here the way I handle any of those work things.
If you accept there is a difference between excuses and reasons, I;ll sahe my reasons....I offer no excuse. I never ever, anywhere, even in purely political discussions where decorum is out the door, encountered what I do here. Ive had the most intracted intense debates imaginable on politics, me the staunch conservative vs. the most liberal of liberals, and NEVER have I encountered the things I offered as examples here....the denial, the assignment of causes based on diagnosing my private life, the dogged rejection of things so provable that they are just not questionable....before you do it, be aware I am not saying everything, or most even of what I say is that kind of truth. I'm refering to things like the numbers of who filed. These are numbers that shed zero light on blame or fault....that is clear in their presentation, it is disclaimed in the studies and here, and the measurements are objective and counted as numbers.....then the answers...."I dont believe it", or worse theys ee blame in an innocuous numbner stating a fact and get angry.....nope, I nevber had that in a negotiation, in a debate, in an argument, never. Thats my reason, not an excuse.
As I admitted above, you do not always do this thing of choosing sides, but several here see that you do do it with regularity, even if you deny it. At least extend the same courtesy to me and dont tell me I am suggesting something so simple as "I dont have to do that, or whay should I have to do that" as my REASON.....read:NOT EXCUSE   to post as I do.

You have a perception of me.....we all have one of each other. Mine of you is that almost no matter what I say and how I say it, you will find whats wrong with the "man" part of it and share that. Again fine...its your view, Im not here to change it.

I repeat I wasnt after respect. I can respect a person in every way, when someone says that generally the sky is NOT light by day and dark by night because they just believe it isnt....I really dont respect THAT ONE THING.

Anyway its over, its pulled, and I'd hoped to seriously discuss the dynamics of the discourse not sit down here and defend myself.

 

Apparently, your conviction from God about your behavior was short lived.  Pride and arrogance seep from your postings. 

The people on this forum come for fellowship, edification, and help with personal problems.  You sow discord and anger. 

Holten tried very respectfully to give you sound advice and yet you just had to respond how YOU and YOU alone are right.  Holten tried to explain how he understands communication with people due to his negotiation course.  What was your response?  To one up him.  Show him that you are the top dog.  "I speant 12 years in sales, 10 as a trader, and now 3 as a perchasing manager. Ive been to umpteen negotiations trainings as well. Ive been blessed to have traveled all over the world on business, and I speak a second language."  Why post this?  Why were you unable to just take his advice and try to learn from it?  Why the need to place yourself on a pedestal?  Show how YOU are right, once again?  Pride.  Arrogance.

 Lack of humility.  You did the exact same thing to Rocco's Mom.  She respectfully tried to explain statistics to you because she had done graduate work in that field.  Your reply was to explain YOUR credentials.  How YOU knew about statistics.  You tried to one up her as well.  Show how YOU were right and she was wrong.  You saying that you are now an expert on negotiations as well as statistics?

Do you gain some type of pleasure from sowing discord and strife amoung Christians?  Since coming to this forum that seems to be your goal.  Now you have helped to shut down the Marriage forum by causing strife. 

You have posted 1000+ posts since 4-22-08.  Besides being extremely excessive in the shear amount of posts,  none are edifying or uplifting.  All tear down and seek to cause dissention.  This is not the behavior of a man that loves God.  The greatest commandment is to love God and second is to love our neighbors as ourselves.  You treat your neighbors, the people on this forum, with contempt.  Disrepect drips from your postings.  There is no love or compassion.  No humility.   

I highly recommend that you walk away from the computer and humble yourself before God.  Take the excessive time that you sit at the computer posting and seek God instead.  Go to the Lord in prayer and read His word instead of pummeling people with your pride and arrogance.

I pray that you will start seeking God instead of seeking to be right. 

I can only imagine that you will rattle off a reply that will defend yourself.  How you are right yet again and I'm completely wrong.  Probably add in a few insult as well.  I will not engage in a battle of words with you.  I'm just calling a spade a spade and leaving it at that. 

The truth of the matter is, I don't care what word you throw at me.  They mean nothing.  I am just saddened and angered that you have sown so much discord on this forum.  People are leaving.  The Marriage Forum is shut down.

The weight of the world and our society itself is hard enough to live in.  Almost on a daily basis I hear of another tragedy or some type of problem in society.  People struggle with pain and problems in their personal lives.  We are supposed to be the Body of Christ.  His arms.  His legs.  We are supposed to be reaching out to the lost.  Why would the lost want any part of Christianity if all they witness is dissention and strife?  Imagine if a non-Christian came here seeking  help and they read all of discord here?  Would this seem like a soft place to fall in order to get Godly advice and help?   No, it wouldn't.   The Body of Christ is also supposed to be edifying each other and loving one another.  Where is your love and edification, DIC?  I don't see it in your words.  It's a shame. 

              

 

         

I am dying to know who you are. I think you are roccos mom, but what I think is not important.

You are the only person here that Ive seen that has posted 2 times only, and both were about me and my style.

I agreed with holten, mostly. And strangely I agreed with roccos mom in that statistical thing too, she for some reason didnt see that, but I agreed with her.

When someone whips out their bonafides there are a number of different dynamics. One they are saying that because they have this, they are the authority. You'd have a complain if I was the one whipping them out first. In roccos moms case I was very clearly trying to show some respect and shared interest. It didnt work.

In Holtens case here, I was trying to show I am aware of and familiar with the training, not the exact some training, but the training. To me the one pulling out the bonafides first is initiating the "mine's bigger than yours" which I dont care a lick about.

This is the mens area. I strongly suspect you are female and if so ask respectfully that you not attack me in here. Write about me elsewhere, I dont mind, other than to wonder about you and why I am the only topic you post about.

If Im wrong, Im sorry

Are you sure you want to say ALL my posts do this or that? Have you read them all? There are plenty of empathetic good solid posts in there, pleanty of helpful and edifying ones in those threads that are that way. It reduced your credibility that you go get my post count, then say ALL.....but it is the same obsession that roccos mom had with my being here...Im pretty darn sure about the ID. Not that it matters, but lets not play that way please.


When did I say I was an expert on statistics? When did I say I am an expert in negotiations RM? 
How do you know how much time I spend here, truly? How do you know when the page is minimized and I am not even in the office? How do you know when, if and how much I read the Word? How do you know anything at all of my prayer life?   This stuff to me is the worst thing that goes on here, its far more rude and disrespectful to get into someones personal walk, and tell them they need to pray more and read the Word more....in a vacuum of info. about how they do that anyway. You (RM) are convionced I sit all day and do nothing but type on here and its simply not the case by a long shot.

Catagorize this as defensive if you wish. I choose to say Im clarifying a coupke things and defending the personal stuff....Im not defending the tone of some of my posts.

Nuff said by me

chaz345:

Holten:

Chaz, you said:  Given that different tone and all sorts of explanations as to actual meaning have been tried, by more than one person, I believe there to be some significant issue with the content. 

What exactly does that mean?  What is the significance?  By "issue with the content" do you mean disagreement?  Does that mean you think many of the women here plain old don't agree with some of the opinions you're talking about?  Or do you mean something different?  If it is just plain old disagreement, what is the problem?  If several people have said the same thing over and over and received the same reaction, then maybe it is time to agree to disagree and drop it.

I'm going to be very blunt and straightforward about what I believe at the risk of sounding like a real jerk.  I absolutely believe that we're talking about a situation where, for some reason that I can't quite understand,certain individuals simply cannot accept undeniable,objective,proveable facts, maybe because it makes them uncomfortable, maybe for some other reason. The thing about just accepting it as disagreement is that what is being said is not what is being disagreed with.  And it happens consistantly enough and similarly enough that I don't believe it to be honest misunderstanding in most cases.  What I truly beleive is happening is that something that can't really be denied is raised, that fact makes someone uncomfortable and since they can't deny it, they misrepresent it into something that they can attack and dismiss. 

Speaking specifically to the usual topic, I believe that consiously or not, many of the women around here see anything that questions the rightousness of any women, or that seeks to challenge the widely held notion that men are far more responsible for society's ills than women are, as some sort of attack or some sort of desire to go back to when women were widely oppressd.

Holten:

To the point of something I know you find very irritating - saying something, being misunderstood, trying to explain, and having the explanation rejected...   I go back to the same analogy... if one person consistently misunderstands me and doesn't believe me when I explain my real meaning, then the problem could be them...  if that becomes a pattern and happens over and over with multiple listeners on myriad topics, then I think the speaker, 1) would give some thought to their delivery; and 2) would expect that after so many times, the explanations are becoming trite and unbelievable. 

I agree in principle with your thinking that if misunderstanding is consistant that the speaker needs to examine the possbility that they could do things differently.   And in fact I said that very thing to HPK many times. But in that case I do beleive that it was primarily tone and style because often, when I said the same basic thing, but in a different way, it was understood and accepted, and even often agreed with.

However, look at what has happened here with the same basic content but 2 very different delivery styles(me and DiC).
 The reaction and the missed points are nearly identical despite very different ways that the same basic content was delivered. That's why I have concluded that it is more about the content than about the delivery.

Obviously I agree with chaz. And this is where I want to be clear. Someone having a problem with rudeness is very understandable....VERY understandable. To put it in a