Family Forum

Re: Aunt Samantha

divorce in church — Fri, 03 Jul 2009 00:43:01 GMT

Hot Ice:

Galatians 5:15: "But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another. "

Actually you are very correct. Great scripture to drop in...I am taping it on my PC, in hopes I just stay off here.

This is indeed me as a dog coming after his vomit.

Re: Aunt Samantha

Hot Ice — Thu, 02 Jul 2009 22:58:13 GMT

Galatians 5:15: "But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another. "

Re: Aunt Samantha

divorce in church — Thu, 02 Jul 2009 21:44:36 GMT

Simplied example... say I told my kids "don't run with scissors, you could really get hurt". They may understand completely and agree with me completely that yes indeed,

But its NOT an example, Its made up from whole cloth to support your paradigm that I never make sense or have a point.

the scissor example would be if you ASKED your kids,when they were not carrying scissors......"why WOULD you go round carrying scissors, when you could get hurt?" out of the blue. They'd say, but dad....we arent carrying scissors nor ever suggested we should.

Re: Aunt Samantha

divorce in church — Thu, 02 Jul 2009 21:41:09 GMT

I was sure you'd come to that conclusion Holten...and its incorrect...and i will TRY to explain why.

Its FINE to repeat, in whatever words, settled things...like ALWAYS stating the part about prayer and study. This is what you accuse me of objecting to.

BUT.....when its done in sentences like this "how could it possible be a bad idea that I stay in prayer and the word?"..<-------this is a clear reference to having heard someone else say it IS a bad idea

Or another way was she said something like "how else can I do that if i DONT stay in prayer and the word"....<----there again, its plainly a RESPONSE to something that was NEVER stated or implied.

Its a plain as day. You all can "love in" as you like....but Im not kaing it up.

NO, I didnt suggest someone "drop half their beliefs because its settled".....then you go on to praise the person for their deep and dedicated whatever....give me a break.

If that were the case Id have never asked. it WAS directed at me or at chaz. Or why pray tell prhrase it as a question?

Again, Holten thanks for asking the original question. I had to imagine it would be my fault no matter what.

Re: Aunt Samantha

BcauseHeLives — Thu, 02 Jul 2009 20:05:04 GMT

chaz345:
BcauseHeLives:
chaz345:
BcauseHeLives:
Holten:

Take DiC's examples of two men.

One man is "spiritually" ill; he is suffering from great temptations of the world. Perhaps life has gotten hard and he's struggling with returning to past addictions like alcohol or drugs; or he's unhappy in his marriage and he's feeling tempted to seek sexual release outside his marriage.

Another man is physically ill. He has a disease that could kill him, but there IS treatment and if the treatment works on him, he'll survive.

For each of these two men, what are ways to help or intervene that are biblically acceptable - are pleasing to God and obedient?

What ways of helping or intervening are of the world, and are NOT rooted in The Word and/or do not have solid biblical, obedience to God foundation?

The spiritually ill man: first & foremost & all the way through prayer. Ask for God's guidance in the situation. Ask Him to show you ways you can help. It might be just prayer. Or He may call you to get into the trenches with this guy & share your own struggles & how God brought you out of the pits you've been in. Or He may lead you to seek someone else out that you know has been through something similar but w/God's help has been set free from the demons.

He will maybe lead you to help this man get treatment for his problem.

It's possible He'll know that by helping this man any other way but through prayer is dangerous to me. KWIM? It might be that He wants us to be still & know that He is Lord & trust Him to care for this guy...by moving in other ways.

Whatever it is He leads you to do...He'll lead you.

Not preparing for the battle by seeking God through prayer & His word & the help of other faith-filled saints is not a good idea. Enabling the man is not a good idea. God tells us to seek Him in everything. He is faithful to lead!

Physically ill man: again prepare through seeking God in prayer, etc. Encourage the man to get treatment for the illness. I mean pretty much the same as above.

I guess in the end I'm saying we're pretty powerless without Him. Yes He gave us brains...but those same brains left w/out prayer & study of His Truth can lead us to death.

'Ok now that you say this, that you agree that physical world action steps are also needed, it would seem that we don't really disagree.

So what exactly lead you to the conclusion that you apparently made that DiC and I (and other's) haven't prayed about our favorite issue and aren't doing exactly what He asked us to?

First of all, both of you either ignore my requests for you to use scripture to back up your assertions on any given subject. You either ignore them or strongly oppose my even asking. At times you even get upset with my use of scripture to show why I believe what I do. You've even told me you weren't going to talk to me anymore because I ask the questions "what does God say about it?" as though that's a highly insulting question to ask. I'm not saying you don't know what He says...I'm asking you what does He say?? There's a difference. You somehow take offense at that & call me sanctimonious because I'm asking you to seek Him...but we agree on seeking Him? How is that?

Second, when I explained what I believe the problem to be you both jumped my ship & said I was missing the boat completely.

With the idea in mind that you understand I'm not saying sit, do nothing, let's go into what I've been saying all along.

The study that I shared shows that men in large numbers are not reading God's Word, much less studying it. Not praying. Even men who profess to be Christians. So let's start with them.

So if you have Christian men not reading/studying/soaking in Truth, what do you suppose is going to happen? They're going to go spiritually stagnant, the lies will rise to the top & sink into their hearts & their actions will follow.

They are professed Christians & since we don't exist in a vaccuum their actions affect those around them believer & non believer alike. Woman, man, child.

Satan has waged a war against mankind & men are not adequately armed for the battle.

How do you combat this Chaz?

Well the first thing we have to do( after prayer and our own studying of the Word) is ask why? Why are so many supposedly Christian men failing to spend adequate time in The Word/praying? See that's where a lot of my frustration in this conversation come in. We AGREE that more men need to spend more time in the Word. But what I've heard as your answer to that problem is for men to spend more time in the Word. Yes, that needs to happen. How do we make it happen? Well like I just said, we need to figure out why so many men choose not to in order to figure out what needs to change. Ultimately what needs to change if their own heart, of course, and I think that the majority of them somewhere inside know that. But what do we do to help take them to that place. Or to look at the same question from the other side, what factors are in place in their life that are contributing to( important to note that I didn't say making them) them making the wrong choice they they have made?

See it's very circular. Too many men aren't equipped for the battle becuase they don't have enough of a grounding in the Word and getting them to embrace such a grounding is part of the battle. So while recognizing that the ultimate goal and answer is more grounding in the Word, we need to look at why they have made the choice they have to not be so grounded.

Like I've said many many times, there's no shortage of the message "hey you guys need to be more gounded in the Word". And I think that nearly every Christian man out there would agree that that is a true statement. So why don't more men listen to and apply that message? Of course it's ultimately a personal choice but if we're ever going to make any headway, we need to look at and address the factors that go into that choice.

Well it starts with men like you & Holten & TDH, etc. All of you continuing to grow stronger in Him. You guys are strong & grow stronger each day I imagine...you have a lot of influence that will go out & have a lot more influence.

Bemoaning that pastors are calling men to get closer to God is not going to help.

Posting these types of articles, is not helping.

Unless you are willing to follow it with Truth. This is what this author said...but listen men this is what God says...and then teach it, preach it, live it! Truth is powerful.

If you're going to expose the lie, you have to be ready to exalt the Truth...right?

That's all I'm saying.

It may not be the complete answer but it sure is the right direction & within God's will.

Re: Aunt Samantha

spare_parts — Thu, 02 Jul 2009 20:03:15 GMT

chaz345:
BcauseHeLives:
chaz345:
BcauseHeLives:
Holten:

Take DiC's examples of two men.

One man is "spiritually" ill; he is suffering from great temptations of the world. Perhaps life has gotten hard and he's struggling with returning to past addictions like alcohol or drugs; or he's unhappy in his marriage and he's feeling tempted to seek sexual release outside his marriage.

Another man is physically ill. He has a disease that could kill him, but there IS treatment and if the treatment works on him, he'll survive.

For each of these two men, what are ways to help or intervene that are biblically acceptable - are pleasing to God and obedient?

What ways of helping or intervening are of the world, and are NOT rooted in The Word and/or do not have solid biblical, obedience to God foundation?

The spiritually ill man: first & foremost & all the way through prayer. Ask for God's guidance in the situation. Ask Him to show you ways you can help. It might be just prayer. Or He may call you to get into the trenches with this guy & share your own struggles & how God brought you out of the pits you've been in. Or He may lead you to seek someone else out that you know has been through something similar but w/God's help has been set free from the demons.

He will maybe lead you to help this man get treatment for his problem.

It's possible He'll know that by helping this man any other way but through prayer is dangerous to me. KWIM? It might be that He wants us to be still & know that He is Lord & trust Him to care for this guy...by moving in other ways.

Whatever it is He leads you to do...He'll lead you.

Not preparing for the battle by seeking God through prayer & His word & the help of other faith-filled saints is not a good idea. Enabling the man is not a good idea. God tells us to seek Him in everything. He is faithful to lead!

Physically ill man: again prepare through seeking God in prayer, etc. Encourage the man to get treatment for the illness. I mean pretty much the same as above.

I guess in the end I'm saying we're pretty powerless without Him. Yes He gave us brains...but those same brains left w/out prayer & study of His Truth can lead us to death.

'Ok now that you say this, that you agree that physical world action steps are also needed, it would seem that we don't really disagree.

So what exactly lead you to the conclusion that you apparently made that DiC and I (and other's) haven't prayed about our favorite issue and aren't doing exactly what He asked us to?

First of all, both of you either ignore my requests for you to use scripture to back up your assertions on any given subject. You either ignore them or strongly oppose my even asking. At times you even get upset with my use of scripture to show why I believe what I do. You've even told me you weren't going to talk to me anymore because I ask the questions "what does God say about it?" as though that's a highly insulting question to ask. I'm not saying you don't know what He says...I'm asking you what does He say?? There's a difference. You somehow take offense at that & call me sanctimonious because I'm asking you to seek Him...but we agree on seeking Him? How is that?

Second, when I explained what I believe the problem to be you both jumped my ship & said I was missing the boat completely.

With the idea in mind that you understand I'm not saying sit, do nothing, let's go into what I've been saying all along.

The study that I shared shows that men in large numbers are not reading God's Word, much less studying it. Not praying. Even men who profess to be Christians. So let's start with them.

So if you have Christian men not reading/studying/soaking in Truth, what do you suppose is going to happen? They're going to go spiritually stagnant, the lies will rise to the top & sink into their hearts & their actions will follow.

They are professed Christians & since we don't exist in a vaccuum their actions affect those around them believer & non believer alike. Woman, man, child.

Satan has waged a war against mankind & men are not adequately armed for the battle.

How do you combat this Chaz?

Well the first thing we have to do( after prayer and our own studying of the Word) is ask why? Why are so many supposedly Christian men failing to spend adequate time in The Word/praying? See that's where a lot of my frustration in this conversation come in. We AGREE that more men need to spend more time in the Word. But what I've heard as your answer to that problem is for men to spend more time in the Word. Yes, that needs to happen. How do we make it happen? Well like I just said, we need to figure out why so many men choose not to in order to figure out what needs to change. Ultimately what needs to change if their own heart, of course, and I think that the majority of them somewhere inside know that. But what do we do to help take them to that place. Or to look at the same question from the other side, what factors are in place in their life that are contributing to( important to note that I didn't say making them) them making the wrong choice they they have made?

See it's very circular. Too many men aren't equipped for the battle becuase they don't have enough of a grounding in the Word and getting them to embrace such a grounding is part of the battle. So while recognizing that the ultimate goal and answer is more grounding in the Word, we need to look at why they have made the choice they have to not be so grounded.

Like I've said many many times, there's no shortage of the message "hey you guys need to be more gounded in the Word". And I think that nearly every Christian man out there would agree that that is a true statement. So why don't more men listen to and apply that message? Of course it's ultimately a personal choice but if we're ever going to make any headway, we need to look at and address the factors that go into that choice.

I don't think anyone even addressed my point.

I know I spent time in the word and in prayer when my ex-wife had her affair.

It made ZERO difference in the outcome.

So tell me again why men should pray?

Who is going to tell men who didn't beat and didn't cheat their wives that the reasons their wives didn't drop their affairs and/or divorces and return to them is because they didn't pray enough?

Who is going to tell the mother or the father who just lost their child that the reason they lost their child is because they didn't pray enough or were not grounded in the word?

I've read the word. Being grounded in the word is no guarantee that one will not avoid bad things in life.

Christ, the most grounded of any man in the Word was killed on the cross. So for anyone to expect life to get better because they pray and are grounded in the word shows a lack of understanding of what comes from such a life.

I'm not saying one should not do this. What I'm saying is I don't really think it will make life on earth much better. It will make you long for God and relationship with him. But it really will not change much here in this earthly life.

It could. God could take away all sin and injustice and so forth. He chooses not to. Therefore, it really doesn't matter how much I read or don't read or pray or don't pray. God is going to do His will regardless what I do from day to day.

Re: Aunt Samantha

chaz345 — Thu, 02 Jul 2009 19:54:10 GMT

BcauseHeLives:
chaz345:
BcauseHeLives:
Holten:

Take DiC's examples of two men.

One man is "spiritually" ill; he is suffering from great temptations of the world. Perhaps life has gotten hard and he's struggling with returning to past addictions like alcohol or drugs; or he's unhappy in his marriage and he's feeling tempted to seek sexual release outside his marriage.

Another man is physically ill. He has a disease that could kill him, but there IS treatment and if the treatment works on him, he'll survive.

For each of these two men, what are ways to help or intervene that are biblically acceptable - are pleasing to God and obedient?

What ways of helping or intervening are of the world, and are NOT rooted in The Word and/or do not have solid biblical, obedience to God foundation?

The spiritually ill man: first & foremost & all the way through prayer. Ask for God's guidance in the situation. Ask Him to show you ways you can help. It might be just prayer. Or He may call you to get into the trenches with this guy & share your own struggles & how God brought you out of the pits you've been in. Or He may lead you to seek someone else out that you know has been through something similar but w/God's help has been set free from the demons.

He will maybe lead you to help this man get treatment for his problem.

It's possible He'll know that by helping this man any other way but through prayer is dangerous to me. KWIM? It might be that He wants us to be still & know that He is Lord & trust Him to care for this guy...by moving in other ways.

Whatever it is He leads you to do...He'll lead you.

Not preparing for the battle by seeking God through prayer & His word & the help of other faith-filled saints is not a good idea. Enabling the man is not a good idea. God tells us to seek Him in everything. He is faithful to lead!

Physically ill man: again prepare through seeking God in prayer, etc. Encourage the man to get treatment for the illness. I mean pretty much the same as above.

I guess in the end I'm saying we're pretty powerless without Him. Yes He gave us brains...but those same brains left w/out prayer & study of His Truth can lead us to death.

'Ok now that you say this, that you agree that physical world action steps are also needed, it would seem that we don't really disagree.

So what exactly lead you to the conclusion that you apparently made that DiC and I (and other's) haven't prayed about our favorite issue and aren't doing exactly what He asked us to?

First of all, both of you either ignore my requests for you to use scripture to back up your assertions on any given subject. You either ignore them or strongly oppose my even asking. At times you even get upset with my use of scripture to show why I believe what I do. You've even told me you weren't going to talk to me anymore because I ask the questions "what does God say about it?" as though that's a highly insulting question to ask. I'm not saying you don't know what He says...I'm asking you what does He say?? There's a difference. You somehow take offense at that & call me sanctimonious because I'm asking you to seek Him...but we agree on seeking Him? How is that?

Second, when I explained what I believe the problem to be you both jumped my ship & said I was missing the boat completely.

With the idea in mind that you understand I'm not saying sit, do nothing, let's go into what I've been saying all along.

The study that I shared shows that men in large numbers are not reading God's Word, much less studying it. Not praying. Even men who profess to be Christians. So let's start with them.

So if you have Christian men not reading/studying/soaking in Truth, what do you suppose is going to happen? They're going to go spiritually stagnant, the lies will rise to the top & sink into their hearts & their actions will follow.

They are professed Christians & since we don't exist in a vaccuum their actions affect those around them believer & non believer alike. Woman, man, child.

Satan has waged a war against mankind & men are not adequately armed for the battle.

How do you combat this Chaz?

Well the first thing we have to do( after prayer and our own studying of the Word) is ask why? Why are so many supposedly Christian men failing to spend adequate time in The Word/praying? See that's where a lot of my frustration in this conversation come in. We AGREE that more men need to spend more time in the Word. But what I've heard as your answer to that problem is for men to spend more time in the Word. Yes, that needs to happen. How do we make it happen? Well like I just said, we need to figure out why so many men choose not to in order to figure out what needs to change. Ultimately what needs to change if their own heart, of course, and I think that the majority of them somewhere inside know that. But what do we do to help take them to that place. Or to look at the same question from the other side, what factors are in place in their life that are contributing to( important to note that I didn't say making them) them making the wrong choice they they have made?

See it's very circular. Too many men aren't equipped for the battle becuase they don't have enough of a grounding in the Word and getting them to embrace such a grounding is part of the battle. So while recognizing that the ultimate goal and answer is more grounding in the Word, we need to look at why they have made the choice they have to not be so grounded.

Like I've said many many times, there's no shortage of the message "hey you guys need to be more gounded in the Word". And I think that nearly every Christian man out there would agree that that is a true statement. So why don't more men listen to and apply that message? Of course it's ultimately a personal choice but if we're ever going to make any headway, we need to look at and address the factors that go into that choice.

Re: Aunt Samantha

dallasapple — Thu, 02 Jul 2009 19:35:29 GMT

pooh girl:
Holten:

I don't think BHL is taking everyone as denigrating prayer and the importance of The Word. I think she's expressing how important she believes it to be, and continues to say it her way even if her listener agrees with her.

I think {you're} personalizing what she's saying - assuming it is directed to {you}. I think the reality is she's expressing her beliefs in a way she thinks is appropriate for their importance.

That's the way I take what she is saying too.

The bible and prayer are very important. It's not whether or not additional actions aren't needed, but that reading the bible and prayer should be at the top of the list then the additional actions follow.

They seem reviled at the suggestion.Its almost like "how dare she".Then skip straight past that and apparently (here is my problem) want to know what SOMEONE else is going to do about the "problem".Or try and make other people get MAD with them about the "problem"

Here is my point..GET up off your butts and DO something for your selves and stop WHINING and complaining.

If men are being STABBED by their wives and she gets off WRITE an opinin to the STATE in which that happened about your outrage over it..Organize a group or join a group..Get up off your butts and DO something.

Dont sit around and say you prayed about it and that "didnt work".

Get up and DO something.Whining and complaining does NOTHING.You want some one to agree with you they are OUT there!There are MANY pissed off men that have to pay child support.There are MANY men that got stabbed by there wives and they are the ones arrested..

I could sit here all day long and talk about any injustice ..animal treatment..and post graphic videos of animal abuse..and be MAD about it..And say its the VIEW some people have about animals!!!Im TIRED of it..And by the way HERE is ANOTHER example of animal mistreatment!

Thats what ya'll do.

Love

Dallas

Re: Aunt Samantha

BcauseHeLives — Thu, 02 Jul 2009 19:18:19 GMT

pooh girl:
Holten:

I don't think BHL is taking everyone as denigrating prayer and the importance of The Word. I think she's expressing how important she believes it to be, and continues to say it her way even if her listener agrees with her.

I think {you're} personalizing what she's saying - assuming it is directed to {you}. I think the reality is she's expressing her beliefs in a way she thinks is appropriate for their importance.

That's the way I take what she is saying too.

The bible and prayer are very important. It's not whether or not additional actions aren't needed, but that reading the bible and prayer should be at the top of the list then the additional actions follow.

Absolutely.

Because if we don't have God's Truth & don't pray for direction the additional actions that follow are more than likely not going to be in His will & that's where destruction happens...outside of His will.

Re: Aunt Samantha

pooh girl — Thu, 02 Jul 2009 19:11:15 GMT

Holten:

I don't think BHL is taking everyone as denigrating prayer and the importance of The Word. I think she's expressing how important she believes it to be, and continues to say it her way even if her listener agrees with her.

I think {you're} personalizing what she's saying - assuming it is directed to {you}. I think the reality is she's expressing her beliefs in a way she thinks is appropriate for their importance.

That's the way I take what she is saying too.

The bible and prayer are very important. It's not whether or not additional actions aren't needed, but that reading the bible and prayer should be at the top of the list then the additional actions follow.

Re: Aunt Samantha

dallasapple — Thu, 02 Jul 2009 19:01:16 GMT

Holten:

divorce in church:

BcauseHeLives:

Not preparing for the battle by seeking God through prayer & His word & the help of other faith-filled saints is not a good idea. Enabling the man is not a good idea. God tells us to seek Him in everything. He is faithful to lead!

Physically ill man: again prepare through seeking God in prayer, etc. Encourage the man to get treatment for the illness. I mean pretty much the same as above.

I guess in the end I'm saying we're pretty powerless without Him. Yes He gave us brains...but those same brains left w/out prayer & study of His Truth can lead us to death.

can you figure out what is different about what she said, and what I was saying? And can you figure why, wven in this post she feels the need to again react as if someone is recommending an ANTI prayer or Biblical approach...with her comment saying that NOT preparing with prayer and study is a bad idea? Can you help me understand what I am saying that leads her to keep arguing a point that is settled, was settled, and has never been NOT settled?

I can't specifically address what is different about what she is saying and what you've said unless you refer me to a specific post or posts. This is a really long thread and it's waved and weaved in and out and I wouldn't feel confident assuming I knew any particular point from any individual.

To your second question.... of course I don't *know*... but I don't think BHL is continuing to argue a settled point nor is she necessarily addressing a perceived specific "ANTI prayer or Biblical approach."

I think the key is right there in your own phrasing, DiC. You say "she feels the need to again react as if someone is recommending an ANTI prayer or Biblical approach...with her comment saying that NOT preparing with prayer and study is a bad idea."

And you ask "Can you help me understand what I am saying that leads her to keep arguing a point that is settled, was settled, and has never been NOT settled?

In the first, you say "... again react as if..." AS IF. That defines an intepretation. You, and others, are defining what she is saying as continuing to argue a settled point; you're assuming that just because she is saying something, that she is necessarily responding to someone else.

I don't believe that is the case.

I believe that BHL strongly believes what she is saying about prayer and The Word.

And I believe that she strongly believes the consequences of NOT giving them their place of proper importance.

And I believe that she considers the two so connected, so integral to each other, that they must be stated together.

People agree with BHL that prayer and The Word are imporant. People agree with BHL that the consequences of NOT relying on prayer and The Word are bad.

It seems like you believe she should drop half of what she's saying just because people agree on the point - it is settled. Maybe you would stop saying it, maybe I would. It is NOT what she's doing. And, as I said, I think the reason she doesn't drop it is because she believes it is simply too important to NOT say, regardless of whether the or some listeners already agree with her.

Simplied example... say I told my kids "don't run with scissors, you could really get hurt". They may understand completely and agree with me completely that yes indeed, if you're running with scissors and you fall and land on the scissors, you could really get hurt. We agree on that. But I'm unlikely to therefore shorten my subsequent warnings to only "Don't run with scissors." The consequences are simiply too important to NOT mention - the act and the consequences are inseparable for me as a parent when I'm reminding my kids.

I don't think BHL is taking everyone as denigrating prayer and the importance of The Word. I think she's expressing how important she believes it to be, and continues to say it her way even if her listener agrees with her.

I think {you're} personalizing what she's saying - assuming it is directed to {you}. I think the reality is she's expressing her beliefs in a way she thinks is appropriate for their importance.

I understand..Its like saying "dont smoke"

Or saying dont smoke because you can get cancer from that.

I see a "resistance" to being reminded of that.Insulted that its pointed out even though you are smoking.

Love

Dallas

Re: Aunt Samantha

Holten — Thu, 02 Jul 2009 18:45:35 GMT

divorce in church:

BcauseHeLives:

Not preparing for the battle by seeking God through prayer & His word & the help of other faith-filled saints is not a good idea. Enabling the man is not a good idea. God tells us to seek Him in everything. He is faithful to lead!

Physically ill man: again prepare through seeking God in prayer, etc. Encourage the man to get treatment for the illness. I mean pretty much the same as above.

I guess in the end I'm saying we're pretty powerless without Him. Yes He gave us brains...but those same brains left w/out prayer & study of His Truth can lead us to death.

can you figure out what is different about what she said, and what I was saying? And can you figure why, wven in this post she feels the need to again react as if someone is recommending an ANTI prayer or Biblical approach...with her comment saying that NOT preparing with prayer and study is a bad idea? Can you help me understand what I am saying that leads her to keep arguing a point that is settled, was settled, and has never been NOT settled?

I can't specifically address what is different about what she is saying and what you've said unless you refer me to a specific post or posts. This is a really long thread and it's waved and weaved in and out and I wouldn't feel confident assuming I knew any particular point from any individual.

To your second question.... of course I don't *know*... but I don't think BHL is continuing to argue a settled point nor is she necessarily addressing a perceived specific "ANTI prayer or Biblical approach."

I think the key is right there in your own phrasing, DiC. You say "she feels the need to again react as if someone is recommending an ANTI prayer or Biblical approach...with her comment saying that NOT preparing with prayer and study is a bad idea."

And you ask "Can you help me understand what I am saying that leads her to keep arguing a point that is settled, was settled, and has never been NOT settled?

In the first, you say "... again react as if..." AS IF. That defines an intepretation. You, and others, are defining what she is saying as continuing to argue a settled point; you're assuming that just because she is saying something, that she is necessarily responding to someone else.

I don't believe that is the case.

I believe that BHL strongly believes what she is saying about prayer and The Word.

And I believe that she strongly believes the consequences of NOT giving them their place of proper importance.

And I believe that she considers the two so connected, so integral to each other, that they must be stated together.

People agree with BHL that prayer and The Word are imporant. People agree with BHL that the consequences of NOT relying on prayer and The Word are bad.

It seems like you believe she should drop half of what she's saying just because people agree on the point - it is settled. Maybe you would stop saying it, maybe I would. It is NOT what she's doing. And, as I said, I think the reason she doesn't drop it is because she believes it is simply too important to NOT say, regardless of whether the or some listeners already agree with her.

Simplied example... say I told my kids "don't run with scissors, you could really get hurt". They may understand completely and agree with me completely that yes indeed, if you're running with scissors and you fall and land on the scissors, you could really get hurt. We agree on that. But I'm unlikely to therefore shorten my subsequent warnings to only "Don't run with scissors." The consequences are simiply too important to NOT mention - the act and the consequences are inseparable for me as a parent when I'm reminding my kids.

I don't think BHL is taking everyone as denigrating prayer and the importance of The Word. I think she's expressing how important she believes it to be, and continues to say it her way even if her listener agrees with her.

I think {you're} personalizing what she's saying - assuming it is directed to {you}. I think the reality is she's expressing her beliefs in a way she thinks is appropriate for their importance.

Re: Aunt Samantha

BcauseHeLives — Thu, 02 Jul 2009 18:44:51 GMT

chaz345:
BcauseHeLives:
Holten:

Take DiC's examples of two men.

One man is "spiritually" ill; he is suffering from great temptations of the world. Perhaps life has gotten hard and he's struggling with returning to past addictions like alcohol or drugs; or he's unhappy in his marriage and he's feeling tempted to seek sexual release outside his marriage.

Another man is physically ill. He has a disease that could kill him, but there IS treatment and if the treatment works on him, he'll survive.

For each of these two men, what are ways to help or intervene that are biblically acceptable - are pleasing to God and obedient?

What ways of helping or intervening are of the world, and are NOT rooted in The Word and/or do not have solid biblical, obedience to God foundation?

The spiritually ill man: first & foremost & all the way through prayer. Ask for God's guidance in the situation. Ask Him to show you ways you can help. It might be just prayer. Or He may call you to get into the trenches with this guy & share your own struggles & how God brought you out of the pits you've been in. Or He may lead you to seek someone else out that you know has been through something similar but w/God's help has been set free from the demons.

He will maybe lead you to help this man get treatment for his problem.

It's possible He'll know that by helping this man any other way but through prayer is dangerous to me. KWIM? It might be that He wants us to be still & know that He is Lord & trust Him to care for this guy...by moving in other ways.

Whatever it is He leads you to do...He'll lead you.

Not preparing for the battle by seeking God through prayer & His word & the help of other faith-filled saints is not a good idea. Enabling the man is not a good idea. God tells us to seek Him in everything. He is faithful to lead!

Physically ill man: again prepare through seeking God in prayer, etc. Encourage the man to get treatment for the illness. I mean pretty much the same as above.

I guess in the end I'm saying we're pretty powerless without Him. Yes He gave us brains...but those same brains left w/out prayer & study of His Truth can lead us to death.

'Ok now that you say this, that you agree that physical world action steps are also needed, it would seem that we don't really disagree.

So what exactly lead you to the conclusion that you apparently made that DiC and I (and other's) haven't prayed about our favorite issue and aren't doing exactly what He asked us to?

First of all, both of you either ignore my requests for you to use scripture to back up your assertions on any given subject. You either ignore them or strongly oppose my even asking. At times you even get upset with my use of scripture to show why I believe what I do. You've even told me you weren't going to talk to me anymore because I ask the questions "what does God say about it?" as though that's a highly insulting question to ask. I'm not saying you don't know what He says...I'm asking you what does He say?? There's a difference. You somehow take offense at that & call me sanctimonious because I'm asking you to seek Him...but we agree on seeking Him? How is that?

Second, when I explained what I believe the problem to be you both jumped my ship & said I was missing the boat completely.

With the idea in mind that you understand I'm not saying sit, do nothing, let's go into what I've been saying all along.

The study that I shared shows that men in large numbers are not reading God's Word, much less studying it. Not praying. Even men who profess to be Christians. So let's start with them.

So if you have Christian men not reading/studying/soaking in Truth, what do you suppose is going to happen? They're going to go spiritually stagnant, the lies will rise to the top & sink into their hearts & their actions will follow.

They are professed Christians & since we don't exist in a vaccuum their actions affect those around them believer & non believer alike. Woman, man, child.

Satan has waged a war against mankind & men are not adequately armed for the battle.

How do you combat this Chaz?

Re: Aunt Samantha

chaz345 — Thu, 02 Jul 2009 18:33:44 GMT

BcauseHeLives:
Holten:

Take DiC's examples of two men.

One man is "spiritually" ill; he is suffering from great temptations of the world. Perhaps life has gotten hard and he's struggling with returning to past addictions like alcohol or drugs; or he's unhappy in his marriage and he's feeling tempted to seek sexual release outside his marriage.

Another man is physically ill. He has a disease that could kill him, but there IS treatment and if the treatment works on him, he'll survive.

For each of these two men, what are ways to help or intervene that are biblically acceptable - are pleasing to God and obedient?

What ways of helping or intervening are of the world, and are NOT rooted in The Word and/or do not have solid biblical, obedience to God foundation?

The spiritually ill man: first & foremost & all the way through prayer. Ask for God's guidance in the situation. Ask Him to show you ways you can help. It might be just prayer. Or He may call you to get into the trenches with this guy & share your own struggles & how God brought you out of the pits you've been in. Or He may lead you to seek someone else out that you know has been through something similar but w/God's help has been set free from the demons.

He will maybe lead you to help this man get treatment for his problem.

It's possible He'll know that by helping this man any other way but through prayer is dangerous to me. KWIM? It might be that He wants us to be still & know that He is Lord & trust Him to care for this guy...by moving in other ways.

Whatever it is He leads you to do...He'll lead you.

Not preparing for the battle by seeking God through prayer & His word & the help of other faith-filled saints is not a good idea. Enabling the man is not a good idea. God tells us to seek Him in everything. He is faithful to lead!

Physically ill man: again prepare through seeking God in prayer, etc. Encourage the man to get treatment for the illness. I mean pretty much the same as above.

I guess in the end I'm saying we're pretty powerless without Him. Yes He gave us brains...but those same brains left w/out prayer & study of His Truth can lead us to death.

'Ok now that you say this, that you agree that physical world action steps are also needed, it would seem that we don't really disagree.

So what exactly lead you to the conclusion that you apparently made that DiC and I (and other's) haven't prayed about our favorite issue and aren't doing exactly what He asked us to?

Re: Aunt Samantha

chaz345 — Thu, 02 Jul 2009 18:29:53 GMT

Holten:
I think they should pray.

There are some who believe that the power of prayer is additive and cumulative.

It isn't a matter of God changing His mind or being convinced to do something or other because of the prayer. It is that the prayer is reflective of the Faith of the believers.

Why would a church here in the United States ever pray for a missionary overseas?

Why would we pray for any soldier deployed anywhere in the world?

Why pray for the President or any other people who work for our Government?

Why was there so much call for prayer for our country during and after the election from people worried about or fearful of what Obama would do?

Why pray for women you've never met and will never meet who might be contemplating abortion?

I'm not in any way trying to convince anyone of anything. But I am certainly surprised at the theology being put forth regarding prayer.

Or more likely misunderstanding.

Until she just now answered the question about the sick men, BHL very much seemed to me to be saying that prayer/time in the Word etc was all that was ever needed and the only valid thing for a Christian to be doing.

And while I agree with the idea that those things should be the beginning of anything we do, sometimes we are called to "worldly" (as in physical world as opposed to spiritual world) action.

So to clarify my previous answer to your question about prayer for a person outside your sphere of influence, IF everyone believed that prayer (or time in the Word) was the only valid course of action for a Christian to take, then yes it would be largely pointless. Not completely because of course the holy spirit can act directly, but if the person in question is not a believer, the chances of that happening in an effective way are minimal.