A Christian organization helping couples build healthier marriages and families.
reagtay: boatmen: Do I envy others? Nope. Do I wish for them to not drive a new car? Nope. Actually I couldn't care less what they drive or don't drive. I only mentioned the car thingy as a real life example of hypocrisy in action. It is hypocritical for a person, who has earned the money, to buy their family a new car? The fact that they are driving a new car doesn't mean that they haven't contributed generously to charities that help the poor. My church maintains a fully stocked "pantry" for the needy. It is hardly ever used by members of the church. I think a lot of churches have these and you can't tell me that this doesn't make a difference. The stuff you said about republican's has no basis in fact. You sound very angry about your place in life and I'm sorry for that. I know things are tough. We live in a 950 sq. ft. 2 bed 1 bath trailer with 2 children and we have no hope of being able to afford a bigger home. We struggle everyday to keep our kids dressed and fed. My husband is a logger and gets up at 12:45 a.m. and gets home about 6:00 pm every day except Sunday. He works hard but it's just enough to pay the bills. He rarely gets to enjoy the money he earns.
boatmen: Do I envy others? Nope. Do I wish for them to not drive a new car? Nope. Actually I couldn't care less what they drive or don't drive. I only mentioned the car thingy as a real life example of hypocrisy in action.
Do I envy others? Nope. Do I wish for them to not drive a new car? Nope. Actually I couldn't care less what they drive or don't drive. I only mentioned the car thingy as a real life example of hypocrisy in action.
It is hypocritical for a person, who has earned the money, to buy their family a new car? The fact that they are driving a new car doesn't mean that they haven't contributed generously to charities that help the poor.
My church maintains a fully stocked "pantry" for the needy. It is hardly ever used by members of the church. I think a lot of churches have these and you can't tell me that this doesn't make a difference. The stuff you said about republican's has no basis in fact. You sound very angry about your place in life and I'm sorry for that. I know things are tough. We live in a 950 sq. ft. 2 bed 1 bath trailer with 2 children and we have no hope of being able to afford a bigger home. We struggle everyday to keep our kids dressed and fed. My husband is a logger and gets up at 12:45 a.m. and gets home about 6:00 pm every day except Sunday. He works hard but it's just enough to pay the bills. He rarely gets to enjoy the money he earns.
divorce in church: TD&H: boatmen: What I do care about is this idea that govt welfare is bad and it should be stopped. It's a distraction from what I believe the real Christian issue is currently. That being that the church isn't doing what it claims to believe. Republicans want to stop welfare, but they are unwilling or unable to come up with a better plan. Republicans want to force others to act as they wish they did regarding abortion/divorce. Rather than lead the way to a better life, Republicans want to force others to act the way they refuse to. I beleive there was a time when Christian's took care of their own. Even some churches today help out those who need it. Problem is, Goverment took over that job...so, people left the church and became dependent on Gov. Now, the church is helples; how do you care for those out of the church? Those then, have choosen a path to destruction, and now depend on Goverment to bail them out. Another excellent point....I'd never thought of it that way....this is precisely it....
TD&H: boatmen: What I do care about is this idea that govt welfare is bad and it should be stopped. It's a distraction from what I believe the real Christian issue is currently. That being that the church isn't doing what it claims to believe. Republicans want to stop welfare, but they are unwilling or unable to come up with a better plan. Republicans want to force others to act as they wish they did regarding abortion/divorce. Rather than lead the way to a better life, Republicans want to force others to act the way they refuse to. I beleive there was a time when Christian's took care of their own. Even some churches today help out those who need it. Problem is, Goverment took over that job...so, people left the church and became dependent on Gov. Now, the church is helples; how do you care for those out of the church? Those then, have choosen a path to destruction, and now depend on Goverment to bail them out.
boatmen: What I do care about is this idea that govt welfare is bad and it should be stopped. It's a distraction from what I believe the real Christian issue is currently. That being that the church isn't doing what it claims to believe. Republicans want to stop welfare, but they are unwilling or unable to come up with a better plan. Republicans want to force others to act as they wish they did regarding abortion/divorce. Rather than lead the way to a better life, Republicans want to force others to act the way they refuse to.
What I do care about is this idea that govt welfare is bad and it should be stopped. It's a distraction from what I believe the real Christian issue is currently. That being that the church isn't doing what it claims to believe. Republicans want to stop welfare, but they are unwilling or unable to come up with a better plan. Republicans want to force others to act as they wish they did regarding abortion/divorce. Rather than lead the way to a better life, Republicans want to force others to act the way they refuse to.
I beleive there was a time when Christian's took care of their own. Even some churches today help out those who need it. Problem is, Goverment took over that job...so, people left the church and became dependent on Gov. Now, the church is helples; how do you care for those out of the church? Those then, have choosen a path to destruction, and now depend on Goverment to bail them out.
Ya'll are kidding me right? Please say your kidding....
There was a time.... about 2K years ago as well as I remember. Things have sort of drifted off the path tho since then.
"Even some churches today help out those who need it." Even some? The Bible doesn't speak about "some" it talks about all who claim. And who gets to decide who needs it? You? Where exactly does the Bible speak about you deciding such a thing? Conditional giving now... is that we've gotten down to? Isn't that the same as conditional love or conditional respect? Sure sounds like it to me.
"Problem is, Goverment took over that job...so, people left the church and became dependent on Gov." The problem is that the church shirked it's responsibility and rather than having people starve the govt stepped in. IF the church would do what it claims to believe, govt welfare would go out of business. But it's not and so people will go/do whatever is necessary to stay alive. I can either accept a govt check or I can go and beg some nice Republican church folk to please buy me some food. IF they decide I'm needy enough then maybe, maybe not, they'll grant my request based on their criteria - NOT GOD'S.
"Now, the church is helples; how do you care for those out of the church? " This truely is sad. The gates of Hell won't prevail but the USA govt has effectively neutralized the churchs ability to love others?!?!? Is this really what you are trying to sell me????????? The church is helpless because it refuses to obey very plain scriptural teachings. PERIOD. Trying to shift the blame isn't helpful. Caring for those out of the church is as simple as caring for those in the church. A bag of groceries to those in need only depends upon the bag of groceries, not if the person attends the "proper" denomination or not.
"Those then, have choosen a path to destruction, and now depend on Goverment to bail them out." So you just don't care then??? Perhaps they chose that path cause the church turned it's back on them.
reagtay:From your post I have an idea that you are trying to suggest that ALL our money belongs to the governernment!?
No such thing. I was just asking your thoughts on taxes and government social programs.. in fact, I guess ANY Government spending.
reagtay:Money is simply an alternative to a direct exchange of goods and services. If we could go back to those days of exchanging book keeping services for the neighbors milk, it would be great. .
Actually, I almost said something similar in regard to avoiding the question of income taxes... but realized in a discussion about taxes, it wouldn't matter... I don't think. I don't KNOW for sure, but I'm thinking that you're supposed to claim as income the fair value of any bartered goods or services.
reagtay:Just because we can't doesn't make all our money the governments by default
Well, actually, I think if you really wanted to and were willing to live the life it required, you might be able to get pretty close... but regardless, I've already said I don't think all our money is the government's by default. It the sense of the provision, it is all God's.
reagtay:Maybe you think the verse means more than just a call to civil authority? If you take it literally that since Ceasar's face is on the denarius that it is his, then I guess the money belongs to the decendents of the president on each given bill or coin.
First, I don't think Jesus was being that literal. I think His message was deeper than just the image on the coin. I think He spoke not just of government, but also materialism.
reagtay:Also, if you are using this verse as broad cover that says I have to do everything that the government says, how would that work during end times when true corruption is in control. Should I take the mark of the devil because Luke 20 -26 says I have to do what the powers that be say?
I didn't say those versus meant anything in particular. I asked YOU how you reconciled those verses with your assertions about taxes and government programs.
I think it makes logistical sense for a few individuals to be selected as administrators and 'centralize' collection and distribution of help for those that are in need. Just as a church collects funds for missionaries, as opposed to each member picking a missionary and contributing their amount. Or how a local church might collect coats and shoes to distribute to those in need, rather than me driving around trying to find a needy person with my shoe size. From an idealized perspective, that makes a certain amount of sense. And from THAT perspective, I really do NOT have a problem with our Government collecting taxes and helping those in need.
The problem with reality is that the programs are bloated and dysfunctional and abused, and the contributors don't agree on who the 'needy' are. That very question was asked... who are the lessor of these??
From a high level, I believe the case can be made that those who oppose taxes and publicly-funded social programs, based on the argument that the bible doesn't specify that a government is to collect and distribute, are picking nits. It could be argued that it denies God is at work regarding your contribution (even if it is via taxes). It demands an element of personal control and involvement that - while admittedly is absent with paying taxes - is also not biblical. God says GIVE to and provide for those in need. And Christ is both specific and general in describing those in need. He gives examples without setting bounds for judgment. Yet.. judge is what many do... is the prospective recipient "worthy"?
People are quite often concerned with how their contributions are utilized by those "supposedly" in need. For example - seeing a person with a "I'm hungry" sign and buying that person McDonald's gift certificates rather than giving cash to try to keep ther person from buying alcohol or drugs.
Don't get me wrong. This isn't any sort of personally elevated issue. If you believe it would be better to have lower taxes and allow individuals to contribute to help 'the lessor of these', I don't have a problem with that, won't argue against it. Frankly, I wouldn't mind at all if my income taxes (and any other taxes) were substantially lower and I had more freedom (and money) to give to my church and wherever else I chose.
But I think some assertions and opinions on this subject are being touted as biblical when they are not.
reagtay: It is hypocritical for a person, who has earned the money, to buy their family a new car? The fact that they are driving a new car doesn't mean that they haven't contributed generously to charities that help the poor.
Yes. They "earned" the money or God granted them the money? Which is it?
And if they claim to be a Christian how do you justify them driving a new car while their neigbors go hungry?
This is Christianity 101 folks. Giving out of our need not whatever is left over after I've gotten what I want.
reagtay: My church maintains a fully stocked "pantry" for the needy. It is hardly ever used by members of the church. I think a lot of churches have these and you can't tell me that this doesn't make a difference. The stuff you said about republican's has no basis in fact. You sound very angry about your place in life and I'm sorry for that. I know things are tough. We live in a 950 sq. ft. 2 bed 1 bath trailer with 2 children and we have no hope of being able to afford a bigger home. We struggle everyday to keep our kids dressed and fed. My husband is a logger and gets up at 12:45 a.m. and gets home about 6:00 pm every day except Sunday. He works hard but it's just enough to pay the bills. He rarely gets to enjoy the money he earns.
In my county only one church has such a pantry and I know of many many other counties where no such pantry exists. Does it make a difference? Sure! Is it what we're commanded to do in the Bible? No.
God is not to be mocked. If He says to do a thing, He actually means we are to do just that. Rationalization and justification as to why we can't/won't only serves to prove to nonChristians that we don't really believe/trust God.
StillHopeful123: Regardless of what we think about Obama's presidency supposedly benefiting people financially, should not the issues that are more important to God, like Sanctity of Human Life and Marriage, be the decisive factors when we elect the next leader of our country? Wouldn't, then, casting your vote for Obama go against the core of who you are as a Christian? How can a pro-Obama vote be reconciled with our Biblical standards? When standing before God on judgment day, will your explanation of and reasons for your pro-Obama vote withstand God's scrutiny? Something to seriously think about.
Regardless of what we think about Obama's presidency supposedly benefiting people financially, should not the issues that are more important to God, like Sanctity of Human Life and Marriage, be the decisive factors when we elect the next leader of our country?
Wouldn't, then, casting your vote for Obama go against the core of who you are as a Christian? How can a pro-Obama vote be reconciled with our Biblical standards? When standing before God on judgment day, will your explanation of and reasons for your pro-Obama vote withstand God's scrutiny?
Something to seriously think about.
I am neither pro-Obama nor pro-McCain. So my comments aren't coming from being a supporter of Obama.
In a 1999 interview with a San Francisco newspaper, McCain stated
"I'd love to see a point where it is irrelevant, and could be repealed because abortion is no longer necessary," McCain told the Chronicle in an article published Friday. "But certainly in the short term, or even the long term, I would not support repeal of Roe v. Wade, which would then force X number of women in America to [undergo] illegal and dangerous operations."
McCain has supported embryonic stem cell research.
McCain did not support the Sanctity of Life Act.
McCain also supports abortion in cases of rape and incest.
Those things are not very supportive of the sanctity of life. The republicans had control of the congress and the presidency, but yet nothing was done to change Roe v. Wade. The republicans (McCain included) did not support and push through the Sanctity of Life Act.
I honestly believe that neither Obama or McCain has the interest of the American people in mind. It's all just a smoke and mirrors game. Saying one thing while doing another. Pandering.
Also, I'm not too fond of the fact that McCain cheated on his 1st wife Carol with his current wife Cindy. McCain applied for a marriage certificate to Cindy before his divore to Carol was even finalized. That doesn't say much for the man's moral character.
So in my opinion, casting a vote for McCain is no better morally than casting a vote for Obama.
divorce in church: reagtay: boatmen: Do I envy others? Nope. Do I wish for them to not drive a new car? Nope. Actually I couldn't care less what they drive or don't drive. I only mentioned the car thingy as a real life example of hypocrisy in action. It is hypocritical for a person, who has earned the money, to buy their family a new car? The fact that they are driving a new car doesn't mean that they haven't contributed generously to charities that help the poor. My church maintains a fully stocked "pantry" for the needy. It is hardly ever used by members of the church. I think a lot of churches have these and you can't tell me that this doesn't make a difference. The stuff you said about republican's has no basis in fact. You sound very angry about your place in life and I'm sorry for that. I know things are tough. We live in a 950 sq. ft. 2 bed 1 bath trailer with 2 children and we have no hope of being able to afford a bigger home. We struggle everyday to keep our kids dressed and fed. My husband is a logger and gets up at 12:45 a.m. and gets home about 6:00 pm every day except Sunday. He works hard but it's just enough to pay the bills. He rarely gets to enjoy the money he earns. Boatmen....this notion that someone with a new car is a hypocrit is dangerous. Who gets to say what we can have? YOU? Do you use airconditioning? Couldnt you do without? How about food, do you carry a couple extra pounds....couldnt you do with less food.....give me a break....compared to the 3rd world we are sick rich, and it sticnks of envy to sit and judge someone as hypocrit by the car they drive. Thats not what this country is about.....YOU deciding who gets what..Cuba comes to mind.....nice beaches......everybody in the same plight....all very fair. I always love it when libs start down this path of telling others exactly what they should and shouldnt have. For me especially having grown up with less than nothing it especially smacks of envy...I know....I was a very envious young man.
It's dangerous?!? lol
And yet you'll give a guy a pass on setting up nonBiblical conditions for being a Christian. God is no fool dic.
Who was it that was gonna decide who is "needy" enough to get the churchs help dic? YOU?
See you'll skirt the plain Biblical command to give. And apparently I struck a nerve with some of you. Did it hurt when you weren't able to give an answer when confronted with the realities of life?
divorce in church: SeekingHisPeace: reagtay:Exactly! and you brought up something that I forgot to mention earlier. If the government is acting unconstitutionally or against it's own laws, then which laws do we follow? Render Ceasar what is Ceasar's? Ceasar is not even sure what is Ceasars! If we blindly follow the laws of MAN without applying biblical principles then we are going to head down a road that only the devil wants us on! Be Subject to Government Romans 13:1-4 (New Living Translation) Everyone must submit to governing authorities. For all authority comes from God, and those in positions of authority have been placed there by God. 2 So anyone who rebels against authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and they will be punished. 3 For the authorities do not strike fear in people who are doing right, but in those who are doing wrong. Would you like to live without fear of the authorities? Do what is right, and they will honor you. 4 The authorities are God’s servants, sent for your good. But if you are doing wrong, of course you should be afraid, for they have the power to punish you. They are God’s servants, sent for the very purpose of punishing those who do what is wrong. Romans 13:1-4 (King James Version) 1Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God. 2Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation. 3For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same: 4For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil. Romans 13:1-4 (New American Standard Bible) 1Every person is to be in subjection to the governing authorities For there is no authority except from God, and those which exist are established by God. 2Therefore whoever resists authority has opposed the ordinance of God; and they who have opposed will receive condemnation upon themselves. 3For rulers are not a cause of fear for good behavior, but for evil. Do you want to have no fear of authority? Do what is good and you will have praise from the same; 4for it is a minister of God to you for good. But if you do what is evil, be afraid; for it does not bear the sword for nothing; for it is a minister of God, an avenger who brings wrath on the one who practices evil. again...whats your point.These tell us to obey govt. No one here is advocating NOT PAYING the taxes. Once they pass we will pay....therefore....we obey the scripture.We are not debating whether to obey.....We are saying they should be doing it in the first place. That we must obey is irrelevant
SeekingHisPeace: reagtay:Exactly! and you brought up something that I forgot to mention earlier. If the government is acting unconstitutionally or against it's own laws, then which laws do we follow? Render Ceasar what is Ceasar's? Ceasar is not even sure what is Ceasars! If we blindly follow the laws of MAN without applying biblical principles then we are going to head down a road that only the devil wants us on! Be Subject to Government Romans 13:1-4 (New Living Translation) Everyone must submit to governing authorities. For all authority comes from God, and those in positions of authority have been placed there by God. 2 So anyone who rebels against authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and they will be punished. 3 For the authorities do not strike fear in people who are doing right, but in those who are doing wrong. Would you like to live without fear of the authorities? Do what is right, and they will honor you. 4 The authorities are God’s servants, sent for your good. But if you are doing wrong, of course you should be afraid, for they have the power to punish you. They are God’s servants, sent for the very purpose of punishing those who do what is wrong. Romans 13:1-4 (King James Version) 1Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God. 2Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation. 3For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same: 4For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil. Romans 13:1-4 (New American Standard Bible) 1Every person is to be in subjection to the governing authorities For there is no authority except from God, and those which exist are established by God. 2Therefore whoever resists authority has opposed the ordinance of God; and they who have opposed will receive condemnation upon themselves. 3For rulers are not a cause of fear for good behavior, but for evil. Do you want to have no fear of authority? Do what is good and you will have praise from the same; 4for it is a minister of God to you for good. But if you do what is evil, be afraid; for it does not bear the sword for nothing; for it is a minister of God, an avenger who brings wrath on the one who practices evil.
reagtay:Exactly! and you brought up something that I forgot to mention earlier. If the government is acting unconstitutionally or against it's own laws, then which laws do we follow? Render Ceasar what is Ceasar's? Ceasar is not even sure what is Ceasars! If we blindly follow the laws of MAN without applying biblical principles then we are going to head down a road that only the devil wants us on!
Be Subject to Government
Everyone must submit to governing authorities. For all authority comes from God, and those in positions of authority have been placed there by God. 2 So anyone who rebels against authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and they will be punished. 3 For the authorities do not strike fear in people who are doing right, but in those who are doing wrong. Would you like to live without fear of the authorities? Do what is right, and they will honor you. 4 The authorities are God’s servants, sent for your good. But if you are doing wrong, of course you should be afraid, for they have the power to punish you. They are God’s servants, sent for the very purpose of punishing those who do what is wrong.
Re-read reagtay's post (quoted above). She seems to be implying that we shouldn't follow the law if it's not biblical.
I'm not talking about taxes, and Romans 13:1-4 doesn't only apply to taxes.
Here are my follow-up questions (and resposnes) to some of those who've posted above:
1. What makes those of you who are advocating the pro-Obama position think that by voting for Obama you will be complying with the Biblical requirements to (a) help the poor and needy and to (b) manage your money wisely? What makes you think that by not voting for McCain you will not be complying with those requirements?
Voting for someone who will make you give your money to the government will defeat your goal of complying with both requirements.
(a) God mandates you to help the Poor and the Needy. However, it is you individually who is mandated to help the Poor and the Needy, by giving to the poor directly. The government is not the Poor and the Needy. The poor and needy are the Poor and the Needy. Let's not confuse the parties here. And, it is up to you individually to decide who qualifies to be the Poor and the Needy based on the Biblical merit, established standards, and close personal scrutiny thereby eliminating wasteful and erroneous spending.
(b) God also mandates you to manage your money wisely. Would giving your money to the government qualify as such? As we all know, government is one of the worst money managing institutions. Currently, our outstanding government debt is $10,334,350,022,006.97. That's over $10 trillion. The biggest chunk (about 25 percent of the $10 trillion total) is held by foreign governments. Japan tops the list (with $644 billion), followed by China ($350 billion), United Kingdom ($239 billion) and oil exporting countries ($100 billion). Governments are notorious for their corruption, mismanagement, unaccountability, and plain human error. Are you seriously suggesting that intrusting your money to someone like that who is 10 trillion dollars in debt is a wise money management decision that God would approve? I think not.
It is true that as Christians we are mandated to "give to Caesar what is Caesar's," it is also our responsibility as Christians to cast our vote for the kind of Caesar who will support the laws that are in line with God's plan and purpose for our lives, as much as possible. Obama wants to take your money and give it to the government. McCain wants to leave your money with you for you to decide who it should go to. Remember the rest of the verse: "and to God what is God's." To God, not Government.
2. Regardless of your answer to the questions above regarding financial management, are financial issues more important that the Sanctity of Human Live?
No.
Here's why:
Commandment Number Six: "You shall not murder."
(By the way, since the whole idea behind the "spreading of wealth" is not about free giving by those who have more than what they need to those who need and have not, but about forcible taking away of what someone else has in the name of those who want it, here's another Commandment: "You shall not covet your neighbor's house; you shall not covet your neighbor's wife, or male or female slave, or ox, or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbor.")
Some have brought up the matter of free will. True, all of us have been given the freedom to do what is right, or what is wrong. Adam and Eve chose to do what was wrong, and here we are today. People disagree on what is "right" and what is "wrong." Many human classifications of right and wrong depend on the era and culture. They are also constantly changing.
However, as Christians, we have the ultimate authority, the Bible, as to the meaning of those two terms. As Christians, we know that life starts at conception; therefore, to kill a child, no matter where he or she is located at the time, is murder. As Christians, we are to channel our free will in accordance to the standards set forth by God in the Bible. Abortion is murder. We are not to condone it. We are to oppose it. Period.
And as a society we recognize the concept of free will. And, as a civilized American society, we recognize that free will cannot be left untamed; thus, we set boundaries by pass laws that are designed to protect us from the harmful manifestations of free will of some of the members of our society. We outlaw crimes, and we punish those who commit them. We pass laws that make it a crime to do many things that people may wish to do. For example, as a society we have laws that make having sex with a child a crime. We also have laws that make murdering a human being without a valid defense a crime. As a society we recognize that some things are not to be tolerated despite the concept of free will. As a society we put individual's free will aside when it comes to things that are more important to us as a society. Consider the Bald and Golden Eagle Protection Act and the Migratory Bird Treaty Act.
So, free will is not at issue. The value that is placed on human life is. Human life is God's creation. Human life is not a disposable inconvenience. When we murder a baby, we either deny God's existence, or tell God that he'd made a mistake, which makes us greater than God. Destroying innocent life that God created goes to the core of the battle between good and evil and is a definite "wrong." It is not to be compared with recycling, air quality, "global warming," or ability to afford a new car. Choosing anything else as an issue of greater importance is appalling and disgraceful. And revealing of the state of the heart of the person making the choice. You can call yourself whatever you wish, but "[y]ou will know them by their fruits…So every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit." (Matthew 7:16-17). You know the rest of the story.
StillHopeful123: McCain wants to leave your money with you for you to decide who it should go to.
McCain wants to leave your money with you for you to decide who it should go to.
Really? Zero taxes? Wow! He's got my vote!
Seriously. I find this discussion funny.
The republicans take our money and give it to corporations.
The democrats take our money and put it towards social services.
Either way, your money is being taken and given to someone.
I think it's sad that Christians would think that God would rather the government give our money to corporations instead of the poor.
I am a Christina. I do not think that God would rather have the government give our money to corporations instead of the poor. I think that God would rather You give the money to the poor instead of the government.
I also think that the money issue is of lesser importance than the issues of sanctity of human life.
God bless.
StillHopeful123: I am a Christina. I do not think that God would rather have the government give our money to corporations instead of the poor. I think that God would rather You give the money to the poor instead of the government. I also think that the money issue is of lesser importance than the issues of sanctity of human life. God bless.
Christian. I am a Christian. Sorry for the typo.
StillHopeful123: I am a Christina. I do not think that God would rather have the government give our money to corporations instead of the poor. I think that God would rather You give the money to the poor instead of the government.
Then by all means do that!
It need not be an either or proposal.
boatmen: divorce in church: reagtay: boatmen: Do I envy others? Nope. Do I wish for them to not drive a new car? Nope. Actually I couldn't care less what they drive or don't drive. I only mentioned the car thingy as a real life example of hypocrisy in action. It is hypocritical for a person, who has earned the money, to buy their family a new car? The fact that they are driving a new car doesn't mean that they haven't contributed generously to charities that help the poor. My church maintains a fully stocked "pantry" for the needy. It is hardly ever used by members of the church. I think a lot of churches have these and you can't tell me that this doesn't make a difference. The stuff you said about republican's has no basis in fact. You sound very angry about your place in life and I'm sorry for that. I know things are tough. We live in a 950 sq. ft. 2 bed 1 bath trailer with 2 children and we have no hope of being able to afford a bigger home. We struggle everyday to keep our kids dressed and fed. My husband is a logger and gets up at 12:45 a.m. and gets home about 6:00 pm every day except Sunday. He works hard but it's just enough to pay the bills. He rarely gets to enjoy the money he earns. Boatmen....this notion that someone with a new car is a hypocrit is dangerous. Who gets to say what we can have? YOU? Do you use airconditioning? Couldnt you do without? How about food, do you carry a couple extra pounds....couldnt you do with less food.....give me a break....compared to the 3rd world we are sick rich, and it sticnks of envy to sit and judge someone as hypocrit by the car they drive. Thats not what this country is about.....YOU deciding who gets what..Cuba comes to mind.....nice beaches......everybody in the same plight....all very fair. I always love it when libs start down this path of telling others exactly what they should and shouldnt have. For me especially having grown up with less than nothing it especially smacks of envy...I know....I was a very envious young man. It's dangerous?!? lol And yet you'll give a guy a pass on setting up nonBiblical conditions for being a Christian. God is no fool dic. I DID NO SUCH THING.....who set up nonbiblical conditions...or whatever you are talking about...I dont even know what you are saying. Ive said several times there is no political connection to being a Christian in my beliefs....I dont get this Who was it that was gonna decide who is "needy" enough to get the churchs help dic? YOU? I dont understand this either.....it makes no sense as a response to anything Ive said. Who gets the churches help? Anyone and everyone who need it...I was clear on that as it relates to me personally too....I do not "test" the needy if I am able to give...I just give...... See you'll skirt the plain Biblical command to give. You have no idea friend about my giving....you really dont. Talking about my giving is bad form.....I have nothing to feel guilty about in that department......not even close And apparently I struck a nerve with some of you Heres the thing with me.....you cannot "catch" me on any of this class warfare junk. I have tons of faults and baggage and weaknesses...tons. But this is the one area where you just wont "get" me. I grew up poor....not just a little bit, Im not saying whaaa whaaaa I didnt get a car in high school or something like that.....POOR.and now....I give.....my wife and I (its ridiculous I allow myself to be baited into this but I take these inferences and accusations on this very serious) we give my friend and you simply are wrong about me if you think Im some rich guy who wants mine mine mine etc. Its not only ridiculous that you class warfare folks assume this about people in general....that you do it to me...if I could sit you down and set you straight about me...would be the most eye opening thing you ever had placed in front of you....and believe me, i am not special, I am not unique. Yoyr assumptions are massively flawed, and tainted with a kind of envy that blinds you.I would never "drive a new car and let my neighbor go hungry"....nor would most people. Come on with the new car stuff....so, rather than just help the neighbor...that wouldnt work for you would it....no...they need to go sell their car THEN help the neighbor.......I mean really what are you getting at here?Did it hurt when you weren't able to give an answer when confronted with the realities of life? again you lost me on this comment....Ive not been flumoxed at all by your "realities of life"Please explain all this
And yet you'll give a guy a pass on setting up nonBiblical conditions for being a Christian. God is no fool dic. I DID NO SUCH THING.....who set up nonbiblical conditions...or whatever you are talking about...I dont even know what you are saying. Ive said several times there is no political connection to being a Christian in my beliefs....I dont get this
I dont understand this either.....it makes no sense as a response to anything Ive said. Who gets the churches help? Anyone and everyone who need it...I was clear on that as it relates to me personally too....I do not "test" the needy if I am able to give...I just give......
See you'll skirt the plain Biblical command to give. You have no idea friend about my giving....you really dont. Talking about my giving is bad form.....I have nothing to feel guilty about in that department......not even close And apparently I struck a nerve with some of you Heres the thing with me.....you cannot "catch" me on any of this class warfare junk. I have tons of faults and baggage and weaknesses...tons. But this is the one area where you just wont "get" me. I grew up poor....not just a little bit, Im not saying whaaa whaaaa I didnt get a car in high school or something like that.....POOR.and now....I give.....my wife and I (its ridiculous I allow myself to be baited into this but I take these inferences and accusations on this very serious) we give my friend and you simply are wrong about me if you think Im some rich guy who wants mine mine mine etc. Its not only ridiculous that you class warfare folks assume this about people in general....that you do it to me...if I could sit you down and set you straight about me...would be the most eye opening thing you ever had placed in front of you....and believe me, i am not special, I am not unique. Yoyr assumptions are massively flawed, and tainted with a kind of envy that blinds you.
I would never "drive a new car and let my neighbor go hungry"....nor would most people. Come on with the new car stuff....so, rather than just help the neighbor...that wouldnt work for you would it....no...they need to go sell their car THEN help the neighbor.......I mean really what are you getting at here?
Did it hurt when you weren't able to give an answer when confronted with the realities of life? again you lost me on this comment....Ive not been flumoxed at all by your "realities of life"
Please explain all this
"And yet you'll give a guy a pass on setting up nonBiblical conditions for being a Christian. God is no fool dic. I DID NO SUCH THING.....who set up nonbiblical conditions...or whatever you are talking about...I dont even know what you are saying. Ive said several times there is no political connection to being a Christian in my beliefs....I dont get this"
In context it makes perfectly good sense. But let me go back thru it for you to be crystal clear. You are advocating a repeal of govt welfare programs. I am opposed to such a thing until some clear method of replacing that program with something equal or better. Based on my understanding of the Bible that something better would be church giving. But it's not happening on nearly a large enough scale to even consider repealing any govt programs. In support of that idea I mentioned that while a Christian may be driving a new car, their neighbors are going hungry. How can that be a Christian attitude? How do you reconcile that obvious lack of love on the Christians part?
Instead of answering my simple question we got off track on how I was envious of those with new cars. I've not said anything about who should or shouldn't have a new car. What I have pointed out is that having a new car while your neighbor goes hungry doesn't line up well with scripture. And then you wanted to warn me about who gets to decide who has a new car and who doesn't. It's a bogus rabbit trail response really. If you'll read back thru this thread you'll notice repeatedly that people are ONLY willing to give if people meet certain conditions. It's not me who is setting the conditions here. And in a polite manner I pretty much dismissed your warning simply because you refused to admonish TD&H for his hateful comment, "anyone that would cast a vote for Obama, is not a Christian per Biblical standards". My thinking is being a Christian isn't really dependant upon who I vote for, but apparently you and others think differently. Must I also be a Republican now?
"I dont understand this either.....it makes no sense as a response to anything Ive said. Who gets the churches help? Anyone and everyone who need it...I was clear on that as it relates to me personally too....I do not "test" the needy if I am able to give...I just give......"
I've already addressed this above, go back and read how many times conditions were set on giving.
"I would never "drive a new car and let my neighbor go hungry"....nor would most people. Come on with the new car stuff....so, rather than just help the neighbor...that wouldnt work for you would it....no...they need to go sell their car THEN help the neighbor.......I mean really what are you getting at here?"
What would work for me is what I've repeatedly said, "IF the church were to actually DO what it claims to believe then govt welfare programs wouldn't be needed". It has absolutely nothing to do with class warfare, having a new car or me being envious. What it has to with is Christians being obedient, regardless of what the govt does or doesn't do.
"Did it hurt when you weren't able to give an answer when confronted with the realities of life? again you lost me on this comment....Ive not been flumoxed at all by your "realities of life"
Then please do explain to me what I'm supposed to do after you end the govt programs? Do I go to a local church for food? Who will pay my gas bill? Certainly the church isn't going to do it. The local Christian isn't going to do it, he's to busy paying for his new car. When I asked you this the first time you had no answer.... so did ya come up with one yet that doesn't involve me starving to death while I wait?
