FamilyLife Forums

dic:

To advocate for FAILED social programs is alone proplematic

 

It is problematic, BUT until something better is found what choice is there for folks like me dic?  Am I supposed to tell the govt that no I don't want your money I'll wait for the church to step up and then if experience is any indicator I'll starve while those "good Republican" Christians drive their new cars by my house?

 

dic:

To side step abortion as a critical matter is problematic.

 

No one is side stepping the issue.  It's a terrible thing, HOWEVER, there is that pesky matter of free will.

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"I love my husband more than I love my children" ~ Ayelet Waldman

boatmen:

dic:

To advocate for FAILED social programs is alone proplematic

 

It is problematic, BUT until something better is found what choice is there for folks like me dic?  Am I supposed to tell the govt that no I don't want your money I'll wait for the church to step up and then if experience is any indicator I'll starve while those "good Republican" Christians drive their new cars by my house?

 

dic:

To side step abortion as a critical matter is problematic.

 

No one is side stepping the issue.  It's a terrible thing, HOWEVER, there is that pesky matter of free will.

I dont know what to tell you, and Im sorry if you are encumbered in any way. But envy will get you nowhere. Your comments drip of envy...its not healthy.
The fact is, whatever assistence you are getting right now, if any, is what you will get even if my taxes are raised 20%. You will see not a dime of extra money.

So whats the point with the class envy and class warfare. Look at it this way, if those republicans were not driving past in theor new cars....some people somewhere...like the ones who MADE THE NEW CAR, would be jobless. And, you wouldnt get the support you do get.

No one will ever lift themselves OR be lifted by bashing those who create wealth. Som etimes I think dems would seriously be happier if simply everyone was homeless and starving...then it would be fair.

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Cool Im banned TOO.
Enjoy it Holten and Company!

Your presenting an image here that you expect SOMEONE ELSE to take care of you. Is that true? I think I need a clearer picture of your situation, but from just what you wrote it looks like 1. you expect to be taken care of by someone else and 2. you envy the people that have worked hard (or at least over extended themselves) to drive a new car.

And then there's that matter of whether you can even BE a Christian if you don't vote a particular way.

 

And of course those who HATE Obama.....

 

And this is a Christian response?

---

"I love my husband more than I love my children" ~ Ayelet Waldman

reagtay:

Holten, In general Luke 20 - 26 is a call to obey civil authority. I haven't suggested anything in any of my posts that as Christians and citizens , we should not do that.

On the other hand, the verse doesn't prevent us from being proactive in helping to create a responsible government.

From your post I have an idea that you are trying to suggest that ALL our money belongs to the governernment!? Money is simply an alternative to a direct exchange of goods and services. If we could go back to those days of exchanging book keeping services for the neighbors milk, it would be great. Just because we can't doesn't make all our money the governments by default.

Maybe you think the verse means more than just a call to civil authority? If you take it literally that since Ceasar's face is on the denarius that it is his, then I guess the money belongs to the decendents of the president on each given bill or coin.

Also, if you are using this verse as broad cover that says I have to do everything that the government says, how would that work during end times when true corruption is in control. Should I take the mark of the devil because Luke 20 -26 says I have to do what the powers that be say?

Fantastic answer....I fulkly agree this is about authority. It cannot be about money, as of course not all the money is theirs. Now, there is a small other interpretation, that being that once govt lays claim to it via taxes....THEN that part of your money is now theirs. But that doesnt fit the context at all, and if you test that hypothesis against other scripture it is cancelled.

The 2 scriptures used are always the ones used. First, to give to the least....then to render unto Caesar.  I guess good people can disagree, and we must, because I believe that the currect tax and give scenario we have is not arrived at Biblically AND it is unconstitutional. I can say that and still be plenty generous and compassionate....as I am called to be....to the poor. I was one, I know how it is.

---

Cool Im banned TOO.
Enjoy it Holten and Company!

boatmen:

And then there's that matter of whether you can even BE a Christian if you don't vote a particular way.

 

And of course those who HATE Obama.....

 

And this is a Christian response?

No, hating Obama is NOT a Christian manner. And there is no hard and fast link to being a Christain and voting a certain way.

So whats your point.....I strongly repudiate and rebuke anyone who starts down the hate path.

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Cool Im banned TOO.
Enjoy it Holten and Company!

boatmen:

And of course those who HATE Obama.....

And this is a Christian response?

I don't hate Obama...I hate the evil he stands for; and yes; that is a Christian response.  Cling to what is good, hate what is evil.

---

Utah Utes...Only Undefeated Team in D1
13-0 = With a BCS Bowl win
No one else can claim that achievment

reagtay:

Your presenting an image here that you expect SOMEONE ELSE to take care of you. Is that true? I think I need a clearer picture of your situation, but from just what you wrote it looks like 1. you expect to be taken care of by someone else and 2. you envy the people that have worked hard (or at least over extended themselves) to drive a new car.

 

Well.... with dic conceding he has no idea what to do about the poor I'll move on and answer your questions.  I guess having great philisophical ideas is wonderful until confronted with reality.

 

Do I expect someone else to take care of me?  Certainly not!  I'm a big boy now and grew up on a small farm where independence was valued very highly.  If anything I work to hard and it physically harms me even more.

 

Do I envy others?  Nope.  Do I wish for them to not drive a new car?  Nope.  Actually I couldn't care less what they drive or don't drive.   I only mentioned the car thingy as a real life example of hypocrisy in action.

 

What I do care about is this idea that govt welfare is bad and it should be stopped.  It's a distraction from what I believe the real Christian issue is currently.  That being that the church isn't doing what it claims to believe.  Republicans want to stop welfare, but they are unwilling or unable to come up with a better plan.  Republicans want to force others to act as they wish they did regarding abortion/divorce.  Rather than lead the way to a better life, Republicans want to force others to act the way they refuse to.

---

"I love my husband more than I love my children" ~ Ayelet Waldman

boatmen:

What I do care about is this idea that govt welfare is bad and it should be stopped.  It's a distraction from what I believe the real Christian issue is currently.  That being that the church isn't doing what it claims to believe.  Republicans want to stop welfare, but they are unwilling or unable to come up with a better plan.  Republicans want to force others to act as they wish they did regarding abortion/divorce.  Rather than lead the way to a better life, Republicans want to force others to act the way they refuse to.

I beleive there was a time when Christian's took care of their own.  Even some churches today help out those who need it.  Problem is, Goverment took over that job...so, people left the church and became dependent on Gov.  Now, the church is helples; how do you care for those out of the church?  Those then, have choosen a path to destruction, and now depend on Goverment to bail them out.

---

Utah Utes...Only Undefeated Team in D1
13-0 = With a BCS Bowl win
No one else can claim that achievment

divorce in church:

reagtay:

Holten, In general Luke 20 - 26 is a call to obey civil authority. I haven't suggested anything in any of my posts that as Christians and citizens , we should not do that.

On the other hand, the verse doesn't prevent us from being proactive in helping to create a responsible government.

From your post I have an idea that you are trying to suggest that ALL our money belongs to the governernment!? Money is simply an alternative to a direct exchange of goods and services. If we could go back to those days of exchanging book keeping services for the neighbors milk, it would be great. Just because we can't doesn't make all our money the governments by default.

Maybe you think the verse means more than just a call to civil authority? If you take it literally that since Ceasar's face is on the denarius that it is his, then I guess the money belongs to the decendents of the president on each given bill or coin.

Also, if you are using this verse as broad cover that says I have to do everything that the government says, how would that work during end times when true corruption is in control. Should I take the mark of the devil because Luke 20 -26 says I have to do what the powers that be say?

Fantastic answer....I fulkly agree this is about authority. It cannot be about money, as of course not all the money is theirs. Now, there is a small other interpretation, that being that once govt lays claim to it via taxes....THEN that part of your money is now theirs. But that doesnt fit the context at all, and if you test that hypothesis against other scripture it is cancelled.

The 2 scriptures used are always the ones used. First, to give to the least....then to render unto Caesar.  I guess good people can disagree, and we must, because I believe that the currect tax and give scenario we have is not arrived at Biblically AND it is unconstitutional. I can say that and still be plenty generous and compassionate....as I am called to be....to the poor. I was one, I know how it is.

 

Exactly! and you brought up something that I forgot to mention earlier. If the government is acting unconstitutionally or against it's own laws, then which laws do we follow? Render Ceasar what is Ceasar's? Ceasar is not even sure what is Ceasars! If we blindly follow the laws of MAN without applying biblical principles then we are going to head down a road that only the devil wants us on!

TD&H:

boatmen:

What I do care about is this idea that govt welfare is bad and it should be stopped.  It's a distraction from what I believe the real Christian issue is currently.  That being that the church isn't doing what it claims to believe.  Republicans want to stop welfare, but they are unwilling or unable to come up with a better plan.  Republicans want to force others to act as they wish they did regarding abortion/divorce.  Rather than lead the way to a better life, Republicans want to force others to act the way they refuse to.

I beleive there was a time when Christian's took care of their own.  Even some churches today help out those who need it.  Problem is, Goverment took over that job...so, people left the church and became dependent on Gov.  Now, the church is helples; how do you care for those out of the church?  Those then, have choosen a path to destruction, and now depend on Goverment to bail them out.

Another excellent point....I'd never thought of it that way....this is precisely it....

---

Cool Im banned TOO.
Enjoy it Holten and Company!

reagtay:

Exactly! and you brought up something that I forgot to mention earlier. If the government is acting unconstitutionally or against it's own laws, then which laws do we follow? Render Ceasar what is Ceasar's? Ceasar is not even sure what is Ceasars! If we blindly follow the laws of MAN without applying biblical principles then we are going to head down a road that only the devil wants us on!

Be Subject to Government

Romans 13:1-4 (New Living Translation)

 Everyone must submit to governing authorities. For all authority comes from God, and those in positions of authority have been placed there by God. 2 So anyone who rebels against authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and they will be punished. 3 For the authorities do not strike fear in people who are doing right, but in those who are doing wrong. Would you like to live without fear of the authorities? Do what is right, and they will honor you. 4 The authorities are God’s servants, sent for your good. But if you are doing wrong, of course you should be afraid, for they have the power to punish you. They are God’s servants, sent for the very purpose of punishing those who do what is wrong.

Romans 13:1-4 (King James Version)

reagtay:

divorce in church:

reagtay:

Holten, In general Luke 20 - 26 is a call to obey civil authority. I haven't suggested anything in any of my posts that as Christians and citizens , we should not do that.

On the other hand, the verse doesn't prevent us from being proactive in helping to create a responsible government.

From your post I have an idea that you are trying to suggest that ALL our money belongs to the governernment!? Money is simply an alternative to a direct exchange of goods and services. If we could go back to those days of exchanging book keeping services for the neighbors milk, it would be great. Just because we can't doesn't make all our money the governments by default.

Maybe you think the verse means more than just a call to civil authority? If you take it literally that since Ceasar's face is on the denarius that it is his, then I guess the money belongs to the decendents of the president on each given bill or coin.

Also, if you are using this verse as broad cover that says I have to do everything that the government says, how would that work during end times when true corruption is in control. Should I take the mark of the devil because Luke 20 -26 says I have to do what the powers that be say?

Fantastic answer....I fulkly agree this is about authority. It cannot be about money, as of course not all the money is theirs. Now, there is a small other interpretation, that being that once govt lays claim to it via taxes....THEN that part of your money is now theirs. But that doesnt fit the context at all, and if you test that hypothesis against other scripture it is cancelled.

The 2 scriptures used are always the ones used. First, to give to the least....then to render unto Caesar.  I guess good people can disagree, and we must, because I believe that the currect tax and give scenario we have is not arrived at Biblically AND it is unconstitutional. I can say that and still be plenty generous and compassionate....as I am called to be....to the poor. I was one, I know how it is.

 

Exactly! and you brought up something that I forgot to mention earlier. If the government is acting unconstitutionally or against it's own laws, then which laws do we follow? Render Ceasar what is Ceasar's? Ceasar is not even sure what is Ceasars! If we blindly follow the laws of MAN without applying biblical principles then we are going to head down a road that only the devil wants us on!

Absolutely! The laws are contradicting the underlying foundational law. Simply, if we followed the constitution, we wouldnt even be having this discussion.
read davy Crocketts speech to Congress about the widow whose home burned down and their intent to take government money and help her....and what they finally did...reach in their pockets and do it privately.  

Oh, you say, no one will do that......Oh, I say, yes they would. People want to help. They just dont trust government, and the bigger the charity gets (United Way etc) the less they are trusted.   People will help, when a need presents. I have evidence
My wife started a ministry in our church in TX....it was a mega church. her idea was simple. One Christmas we watched as fiolks carried dozens of Angels off the angle tree away. Wife realizeed that when presented with a specific need, people are craving to help. Thats why angel tree succeeds. Its specifc  to A CHILD....who needs A size 5 shirt or other specifics. they carry PILES of gifts back for that.
So she started a deal where her and I went into poor neighborhoods, met folks, made contact, and found needs. for example, a woman needs  bed for her boy, his baby bed is too little.....another women say needs a fridge...hers broke....another had an electric bill...another needed her car fixed...on and on....we put those on cards, laid them out like the angles on the tree, and EVERY WEEK EVERY NEED was taken and met. 100%. Our problem was finding enough needs! We would literally take the giver, load the fridge in our truck, and all go there and drop it.....direct from giver to receiver....the blessing of the experience....need met. It proved to me its the bureaucracy thats hindering. So imagine the gobvernment...no way its as attractive as is giving directly to the need. I learned about human nature in that deal. And, it was all good, from all of those new car driving rich republicans.

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Cool Im banned TOO.
Enjoy it Holten and Company!

boatmen:

Do I envy others?  Nope.  Do I wish for them to not drive a new car?  Nope.  Actually I couldn't care less what they drive or don't drive.   I only mentioned the car thingy as a real life example of hypocrisy in action.

It is hypocritical for a person, who has earned the money, to buy their family a new car? The fact that they are driving a new car doesn't mean that they haven't contributed  generously to charities that help the poor.

My church maintains a fully stocked "pantry" for the needy. It is hardly ever used by members of the church. I think a lot of churches have these and you can't tell me that this doesn't make a difference. The stuff you said about republican's has no basis in fact. You sound very angry about your place in life and I'm sorry for that. I know things are tough. We live in a 950 sq. ft. 2 bed 1 bath trailer with 2 children and we have no hope of being able to afford a bigger home. We struggle everyday to keep our kids dressed and fed. My husband is a logger and gets up at 12:45 a.m.  and gets home about 6:00 pm every day except Sunday. He works hard but it's just enough to pay the bills. He rarely gets to enjoy the money he earns.

SeekingHisPeace:

reagtay:

Exactly! and you brought up something that I forgot to mention earlier. If the government is acting unconstitutionally or against it's own laws, then which laws do we follow? Render Ceasar what is Ceasar's? Ceasar is not even sure what is Ceasars! If we blindly follow the laws of MAN without applying biblical principles then we are going to head down a road that only the devil wants us on!

Be Subject to Government

Romans 13:1-4 (New Living Translation)

 Everyone must submit to governing authorities. For all authority comes from God, and those in positions of authority have been placed there by God. 2 So anyone who rebels against authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and they will be punished. 3 For the authorities do not strike fear in people who are doing right, but in those who are doing wrong. Would you like to live without fear of the authorities? Do what is right, and they will honor you. 4 The authorities are God’s servants, sent for your good. But if you are doing wrong, of course you should be afraid, for they have the power to punish you. They are God’s servants, sent for the very purpose of punishing those who do what is wrong.

Romans 13:1-4 (King James Version)

 1Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.  2Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.  3For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:  4For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.

Romans 13:1-4 (New American Standard Bible)

 1Every person is to be in subjection to the governing authorities For there is no authority except from God, and those which exist are established by God.  2Therefore whoever resists authority has opposed the ordinance of God; and they who have opposed will receive condemnation upon themselves. 3For rulers are not a cause of fear for good behavior, but for evil. Do you want to have no fear of authority? Do what is good and you will have praise from the same;  4for it is a minister of God to you for good. But if you do what is evil, be afraid; for it does not bear the sword for nothing; for it is a minister of God, an avenger who brings wrath on the one who practices evil.

again...whats your point.

These tell us to obey govt.
No one here is advocating NOT PAYING the taxes. Once they pass we will pay....therefore....we obey the scripture.
We are not debating whether to obey.....

We are saying they should be doing it in the first place. That we must obey is irrelevant

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Cool Im banned TOO.
Enjoy it Holten and Company!