FamilyLife Forums

divorce in church:

There are lots of things that are wrong, yet when you ask some folks they will say they have no issue with it. It is so bad, as an example, there are even victims of abuse who would answer that they dont mind.

There are also especially in this country so many people who simply don't think. I dont mean they think incorrectly, or they think different than me, they honestly don't even think. Relationally, as is frequently said, men can tend to be NOT thinkers. We just dont sit and ponder relatal things so much...I guess we are volunteers to be blissfully unaware even when, if you asked our wives they'd say things are falling apart.

For those reasons, anytime someone says they asked so and so if they have an issue with men being asked to step up, I don't think it reflects their well considered opinion when they say no. Likely they have not even ever considered the question before....ever....so of course when asked, they so, "nope, not botherin me"...which after all is a pretty common man answer to ANY question put to us by our spouses or mothers or sisters or female friends.

If, however, one of two things happen, I dare say I much bigger number will say heck yea it bugs me. One...if they find themselves on the receiving end of a divorce or close to someone who is...or Two, if they for some reason really read/listen to someone talk about it and check the facts. Sure not everyone will be bothered, but it is not a matter of perception, when those saying it doesnt bother them probably havent even considered if it does or doesnt bother them ever before...IOW they have never even perceived it AT ALL, let alone wondered HOW they perceive it.

Which makes it even all the worse. Because regardless the number, the potential men who could awaken to this would be enough to finally give it critical mass, and join together in a Godly way, and congeal an effective non combative message that is not all or nothing and is non threatening.

Despite some men saying it doesnt bother them, again, they are by saying that essentially saying "nope really I never get bugged about that nor even dwell on it"....whereas the ladies seem to be saying they HAVE considered it carefully and that we whiners are perceiving something that may or may not be there and we need to bugger off.

 

No further comments your honor.

I just cant believe you have the audacity to say that a man who answers no to being bothered by all the things you seem to be tortured over that he didnt really consider the question.

You just refuse to believe that some men arent offended by other men in fact needing to step up.Some men taking responsibiltiy for their OWN reputation not what some T>V commercial portrays another man as ...or some writer for FOX.

You either know who you are or you dont.Your either doing what you are supposed to be doing or you arent.

And you arent going to put the men in my life in your "non thinking" "blistfully" anaware category either.Thats a complete cop out.

Love

Dallas

 

I just cant believe you have the audacity to say that a man who answers no to being bothered by all the things you seem to be tortured over that he didnt really consider the question.

 

I cant either. And I didnt. Im not gonna explain, but thats totally not what I said.

Paste my words, repeat them, whatever....thats not what i said...not even close

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Cool Im banned TOO.
Enjoy it Holten and Company!

DiC - Maybe you missed it.  I believe it bothers you, Chaz & well others...the step it up message.  You've proven that by posting endless threads on the subjects & examples of what bugs you.

Your life as it is, your walk, your faith, where you are at a given time in life does in fact color your thoughts & motivations. 

You feel men are being degraded by society & the Church.  That is your real feelings on the subject.  You feel motivated to see change.  It's not wrong, you're not whining, I was wrong to say those things.  It is what it is for you.  And it's real for you.  You have a heart for men who are hurting because of this issue & you want to see things change for the good of man, woman & child.

For some they're not so bothered by it.  They don't have a problem with the step it up message.  They're comfortable with things.  Yeah maybe at some point that may change.  Maybe even you will convince them that there is a problem & something needs to be done.  Maybe you won't.

You know maybe God has moved on your heart in a different way than others.  Maybe God's dealing with you personally...so you can help a whole slew of others...I don't know only He does. 

So you have said you are seeking Him & you are moving along the path He has laid before you.  Who am I to judge? 

However, please do not belittle those who do not understand or do not agree with you or aren't joining your bandwagon.  Try to remember that God's got a plan for everyone & it doesn't usually look the same as another. 

I do understand your frustration at being called a whiner or a woman hater.  Those things were said out of frustration.  Please forgive me for insinuating & out right saying those things.

I don't disagree with you.  I also know that as much as the women's movement helped women, it did far more damage than good.  So I understand your frustrations there.  I'm affected by it as is many other women. 

Society has done a lot of damage to women as well. 

To be honest my purpose right now is more personal & closer to home.  I'm not at a place to be able to help this movement, emotionally or spiritually.

So it's best for me to just not engage.  I see things in these discussions on both sides of the issue that are damaging to the cause & to each gender.  But I honestly have to just release it to God because it's obvious that this topic drags up some hurts for me in the place I am at this point.

God bless...

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Therefore put on the full armor of God, so that when the day of evil comes, you may be able to stand your ground...

Let me try an example...then i will drop it.
I didnt belittle anyone, and Ive repeatedly stated Im not bothered by disagreement.
That someone is unaware of something is not belittling them.

For example, unrelated but same dynamic, where I grew up, it was/is a very small farming community in southern Ohio. Its the least populated and poorest county in the state. The town had 2000 folks, still does. They are frozen in time. There are no minorities there (funny thing is there is also not a racist attitude.....another topic)

So, if I were to go down the street and ask men there if they were deeply distressed by the "illegal alien" problem, they'd pretty much all say no! not at all!. The issue doesnt exist there. In fact MOST issues dont exist there that are national in scope. There is a weekly newpaper and bigger papers from the larger cities. Few bother to read the larger papers, and those who do would skip things about illegal aliens....its just a non-issue for them. SO....they answer, "no bother".....this IS NOT belittling those folks. Its describing the condition of their life and what they are interested in. They are smart good solid folks, well informed on things that impact them.
I daresay, if I could sit and explain to them the real issues that face some towns say in Texas or Southern CA, they would say "wow, really, thats a huge problem"....and see it then....but just to question them, even saying "lots of folks are negatively affected by illegal immigration, does this issue trouble you?" they would say no.

If you can honestly tell me that the folks who you ask are very well informed about the issues we discuss and STILL not bothered....THEN ok, fine. But I know very well what the situation Ive faced is. I could ask the men I see all day if they are bothered and to a man they would say , "nope, step up message doesnt trouble me at all"...Ive had that conversation A LOT.

Even after telling some men some facts and figures, some are simply not bothered, and the reason is, some folks, myself included, just dont get bothered by things that do not directly impact them. There are myriad serious issues that if you ask me if I was troubled by them Id say Nope. And 6 years ago, if you aksed me if I was troubled by mens issues Id have said Nope. I was one who had to have an experience to then see and care. Others I know have been able to see the issues without having an experience...that is more rare. Most people, myself included, if something isnt either on THEIR backs, OR repeated in the media as a big problem.....then it ISNT a problem for them. Its NORMAL....Its ME, its ALL men I know....so the fact that we men are ALL subject to being NOT wrapped up in certain issues has zero bearing on whether the issue is real or not.
Back to the example of illegal immigration.....that issue is REAL....and it is NOT "real for some and not others because of persepective" there are tangible actual matters that are problematic...no matter if they bother some or not.
Its the same here. There seems to be some confusion anyway. Its not so simple as to say "gosh Im bothered that there is a consistent step up message". I hardly think I'd really care if some pastors and leaders saying "step up" were the totality of the matter.
The matter is that this "step up" message is a reflection of an antire set of actual events and facts and things that are very real to those impacted. Its not a feeling, its a fact, for the men affected. So perception has nothing to do with it other then it will determine if one cares or not...but that doesnt speak to the issue being "an issue for me but not some other guy"

I didnt say no one pondered or considered the question. I didnt belittle anyone. I described a quite natural and common state of being for myself and other men where, if we are not personally bothered by something, OR we dont know someone bothered by it.....we can easily just not worry over it. This may be a difference between men and women, I dont know. But men wont sit around agonizing over things that are nebulous to them. Men aren't forthe most part "visualize world peace" types in terms of dwelling in and on it and reading and being informed and such.
(no im not saying men dont care about world peace, or dont care about THINGS)

There are Im sure men who are well informed on everything and still dont care. Sure. But its the kind of thing when I run across them, I start asking if they have been effected, have they had a relative effected, have they had any kind of nudge to stop and think......Hmmmm, maybe something is amiss. and then I find they have not....so its NEWS to them....they read it, and its OUTSIDE the self. Im OK You're OK stuff..I have LOTS of things Im that way about. If it aint broke (FOR ME) dont fix it.
Its normal human nature, not an insult.

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Cool Im banned TOO.
Enjoy it Holten and Company!

DIC..there is no difference between men and women not agonizing or dwelling over issues that do not affect them.Im "aware" of horrible discirmination against women in other countries Places where a woman can be charged with adultery for being raped..I hear about it and I feel bad for them.Then I count my blessings I was born here.That doesnt mean its not a real issue.Or that I dont care at all.or that I havent thought about it.

Love

Dallas

JaneFW:

Hot Ice:

BcauseHeLives:

Grrrr...I had a whole response & lost it. 

I have to get to work.  I'll respond as soon as I can.

BHL, I read your response in the other thread.  "Ok, ok.  They're all out to get you.  Men are victims."  What I hear is that you're not willing to stop the sarcasm and the insults.  That communicating with you requires me to deal with that on a continual basis.  I'm not willing to do that.

Until I hear from you that you are willing to stop that, then this is where I stand.

 

While you have every right to respond to or not respond to anyone you want to, you have no right to tell BHL - or anyone else - that they need to stop doing x - which you perceive them to be doing - before you will do y.  I mean, really. I  think you confuse the women around here with your wife sometimes. 

So stop communicating with people who you don't agree with.  Period.

That's why I've dropped the rope.

How would you ever know how I would talk to my wife about anything?

And look Jane (and BHL, since you signed your name to what she said to me, by your "Thanks Jane"), even when you and I disagreed, you realized you didn't have the right to tell anyone who to "stop communicating with". 

That's a choice, right?  Not something we can authoritatively command someone to do, right?  Please don't come across as giving me orders, by saying it to me.

 

 

BHL if you had apporached me earlier about what you perceive from me, I could have addressed it, and done something about it.  If you're willing to do that when you have a problem with me, and do it right away, then I WILL deal with it.

I don't know what you not having a relationship with me has to do with anything, or why you brought it up.

Alright.  I'm in sin by arguing.

I'll stop the conversation here among the women about male/female designs by God.

I see in the scriptures that if somebody is doing something that the Word speaks against we are supposed to step to them and speak to them about it.  I won't stop that.  But I'll listen to whatever is behind these accusations about me, and deal with whatever truth is there.

I'll listen to whatever God says is wrong with me, and the way I think.  Everyone else is disqualified.  But if you talk to me by telling me what God says, I'm all ears.  What do you think?

Someone's got to make the move to reconcile:

I had a really bad attitude toward the women who have been using a lot of sarcasm/putdowns, too.  I had a chance to be part of what God wanted to do with that, and instead helped the devil tear down others, including myself. 

BHL, you didn't specify who was causing you to feel beat up.  You spoke for other women, but didn't name them, so I can't apologize to them.  You didn't specify what was resulting in you feeling beat up.  So, since I don't konw if I was one of the men, what it was that I said, or if it was simply a perception you have of me that I was feeding (and, if so HOW?  what I said, IOW), I can't target it for repentance.  If you don't want to be specific with me, how about being specific with God, and praying for me, and ask HIM to be specific with me?

Let me kill the argument about feelings by asking everyone to remember that I can't repent of someone's feeling about me--I can only repent of what I've done.  Has  nothing to do with whether or not feelings are O.K.

If there is something I see God saying is not wrong, but someone else is calling wrong, or charging me with motives, etc.  I'll still be willing to attack anything that I AM doing, or anything that I may be doing that isn't wrong, but is causing someone to stumble.

Jane,

I thought it rude and cruel to bring up my  wife in an unflattering accusation of me......I coudn't believe you did that, knowing I am freshly divorced, and not at all recovered.

 

Hot Ice:

Jane,

I thought it rude and cruel to bring up my  wife in an unflattering accusation of me......I coudn't believe you did that, knowing I am freshly divorced, and not at all recovered.

 

That is, assuming I understood you correctly.

JaneFW:

I mean, really. I  think you confuse the women around here with your wife sometimes. 

So, how long have you been believing this?

I dont have any illusion of ever understanding some things said here.  I don't like what was suggested earlier, and so I want to be clear with everyone.

There is not ONE woman here that I have a relationship with, WANT to have a relationship with--other than that of sister in the Lord.  Never have........never will.

Hot Ice:

There is not ONE woman here that I have a relationship with, WANT to have a relationship with--other than that of sister in the Lord.  Never have........never will.

FWIW I believe you.

I don't feel there is anything to reconcile.  I just would like to move on from this discussion...or rather walk away from it.  I have more than enough going on IRL to try to responsibly take this topic on here. 

I also don't understand why you have targeted me for the miriad of issues you have with me & not others.  I don't know why you chose me to "correct" or whatever it was you were trying to do.  But I don't have the emotional energy for it. I also do not have the time or energy to put into whatever it is you're trying to accomplish with me.  I'm fighting for my marriage at this point & that is the most important thing I can put my time & energy into.

Peace & blessings...

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Therefore put on the full armor of God, so that when the day of evil comes, you may be able to stand your ground...