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SeekingHisPeace: JaneFW:Thank you all. It does help to get perspective, and to know for sure that this is not something that I am making a big deal about for no reason. Sometimes, with my h's responses, I wonder about that. I just want you to know that I think there is good reason to make a big deal about this.
JaneFW:Thank you all. It does help to get perspective, and to know for sure that this is not something that I am making a big deal about for no reason. Sometimes, with my h's responses, I wonder about that.
I just want you to know that I think there is good reason to make a big deal about this.
I understand what you both mean by "make a big deal out of it". But because that phrase is often used to disparage someone's reaction, as in "why are you making such a big deal out of this?", I'd think about it differently.
What you are doing, Jane, is recognizing the seriousness of his actions, and the implications.
And, I believe, what is also happening is that you are letting go of the attempts to convince yourself that you don't really care. (or something like that - not trying to be too specific about you).
I believe firmly that there are times we simply have to turn something over to God - or turn someONE over to God. But that in no way whatsoever means that you have to ignore the situation and the person's actions. Turning your husband's bondage over to God does NOT mean that you should stop facing him on his behavior; it does NOT mean that you should stop monitoring the computer.
If your husband were an alcoholic and you turned his recovery over to God, that doesn't mean you should then say "OK" when he asks you to pick up a case of beer on your way home.
Your husband has shown you and continues to show you that he is not worthy of your trust when it comes to the computer, Facebook, IMing, other women, etc. You can (and in my opinion you should) continue calling him on his lies, half-truths, manipulation, etc.
You can decide just how far to push it... but I *would* push it... not yelling or fighting, just matter of fact. For example, him changing his password... I think it is a serious consideration that you ask him about that... "Why did you change your {Facebook} password?" Don't get dragged into him being indignant about how you know... don't go there, don't get sidetracked. Just ask the question. If he comes back with some story about why, like the system crashed or whatever.. then smile and say something like "Oh, I see. All right. So, what is your password now?"
I guess the short of it is, Jane, that while I believe you have to turn your husband himself, and any changes in him, completely over to God, you CAN live life in the reality of his actions. You shouldn't pretend like you don't know he's lying when he is; you shouldn't pretend like you trust him when you don't. You have to completely break that fantasy world he lives in where he thinks he's getting away with things. Force him to sit there and ponder that he lied to his wife, she knows I lied to her but she didn't yell at me or fight with me... I'm not getting away with anything... she KNOWS.
You know... living with someone who is lying to you, and you trying to pretend like you don't know.. you living that duplicity of what you KNOW and how that makes you feel, compared to what you "show" outwardly... that has GOT to be absolutely exhausting for you, physically, emotionally and spiritually. Just live in the reality of what things are right now, and force your husband to live in reality, too. You can't change him, but you CAN force him to face some of his choices head-on.
JaneFW:I seriously don't understand him. There's all of this going on, and then he's making a big deal that we get away for a long weekend at our 10th wedding anniversary in November. He texted his parents last night to make sure they could come down to cover childcare, and was so pleased when they said they could. So, how does this fit into the jigsaw? He wants to be with me - but he wants to be with other women too? I don't get it.
Holten:You can decide just how far to push it... but I *would* push it... not yelling or fighting, just matter of fact. For example, him changing his password... I think it is a serious consideration that you ask him about that... "Why did you change your {Facebook} password?" Don't get dragged into him being indignant about how you know... don't go there, don't get sidetracked. Just ask the question. If he comes back with some story about why, like the system crashed or whatever.. then smile and say something like "Oh, I see. All right. So, what is your password now?"
JaneFW:He didn't ever actually give me his password, I just found it out via Eblaster, so I can't really demand to know it. I don't want him to know I access his FB, because that's not going to change the issue. That will just drive his issues underground, and he will be a "dry drunk" and no heart change. I don't know whether that makes sense. I have so much going on right now, I feel like my brain is imploding - a lot of hassle at work, this business with my h, VBS for 3 hours every night, not getting home until 9:30, not getting to sleep until 10, then getting up at 5am, with very little, very broken sleep. So that was my little pity party. Thank you all for coming along. Here are your goodie bags .. etc.I don't yell. I have to say that. I very rarely raise my voice with him, having learned from experience that he has the far louder voice. I have trouble comparing his problem to alcoholism. I'm not saying that his sin is worse than my sin or anything, I guess I just can't relate. How do you get addicted to flirting with women, or lusting after women, or whatever you would categorise this as? It is an obsession, I know. It never ends. It's tennis players, or old school friends, or models, or cheerleaders, or actual porn. I also have problems with separating this from myself. I feel that if I were taller, younger, blonde (no "r"), etc. - whatever - this wouldn't be a problem. He does derail the conversation and I find that difficult. He instantly says I don't trust him, and asks me what I'm going to do when he gets a job and works with women, am I going to assume he is having affairs with them? I guess my answer should be "should I be worried that you will be having affairs with them?" I did some thinking about it this morning, and Holten, a lot of your good advice is petering through, dude! One of the things that flittered into my mind was that, no matter what, this isn't forever! I think I was listening to K-Love when that reality struck. There is a forever, but it will be without sadness and worry and frustration. :) Not that I'm suicidal or anything, ok!! But, one day ... and in the meantime I guess it's about turning him over to God - which I'm doing daily - and continuing to keep him accountable. It's just really hard.
It *is* just really hard. I really sucks, rots, stinks and just plain ol is *not* fair either!
Holten has great advice and I would follow it as best you can to the letter of what he is saying. I know that will be hard, but I really deeply agree with everything he shared.
((Jane)) how I wish we were closer and I could take you out for a cup of coffee and a real hug.
JaneFW:I have trouble comparing his problem to alcoholism. I'm not saying that his sin is worse than my sin or anything, I guess I just can't relate. How do you get addicted to flirting with women, or lusting after women, or whatever you would categorise this as? It is an obsession, I know. It never ends. It's tennis players, or old school friends, or models, or cheerleaders, or actual porn.
JaneFW:I also have problems with separating this from myself. I feel that if I were taller, younger, blonde (no "r"), etc. - whatever - this wouldn't be a problem.
JaneFW: He instantly says I don't trust him, and asks me what I'm going to do when he gets a job and works with women, am I going to assume he is having affairs with them? I guess my answer should be "should I be worried that you will be having affairs with them?"
JaneFW:I have trouble comparing his problem to alcoholism. How do you get addicted to flirting with women, or lusting after women, or whatever you would categorise this as? It is an obsession, I know. It never ends. It's tennis players, or old school friends, or models, or cheerleaders, or actual porn.
How do you get addicted to flirting with women, or lusting after women, or whatever you would categorise this as? It is an obsession, I know. It never ends. It's tennis players, or old school friends, or models, or cheerleaders, or actual porn.
It IS an addiction, Jane. That isn't excusing it. But it is an addiction as much as alcohol or drugs or whatever, because it is being used to try to fill some need.
chaz345:Again for clarity, I'm not in the least bit excusing or justifying his actions but the addiction is chemical in nature. Sexual arousal triggers the release of chemicals in the brain, just like any other drug does. Anecdotal evidence collected by the guy that "runs" my accountability group in his counsiling experience suggests that it's harder to stop porn use (and the "self pleasuring that almost always goes along with it) that it is to quit heroin.
Yep. You might not be able to understand it, Jane. So you just need to decide to believe it. It isn't any different from someone who *can* drink alcohol responsibly not being able to understand being an alcoholic.
The "addiction" problem doesn't depend on what is being abused - be it alcohol or drugs or porn or shopping. The addiction comes from the emotional and physical feelings attained, or attempting to be covered up. The person wants to *feel* different, and is using some 'thing' to try to accomplish that.
chaz345: JaneFW:I also have problems with separating this from myself. I feel that if I were taller, younger, blonde (no "r"), etc. - whatever - this wouldn't be a problem. Not that hearing this from me will likely help much but IT ISN'T YOU.
I agree.
chaz345: JaneFW: He instantly says I don't trust him, and asks me what I'm going to do when he gets a job and works with women, am I going to assume he is having affairs with them? I guess my answer should be "should I be worried that you will be having affairs with them?" He's given you every reason to not trust him, hasn't he? As for your hypothetical answer, I'm sure you realize that as much as you might want to say something like that it would serve no good purpose. It has zero chance of having a positive impact and a very high chance of having a negative one.
I agree. Plus, it isn't really an answer... it is a question, and a challenge.. and one that presumes negatively.
But still... I believe the fact that you don't trust him, and that you have good reason for that, should NOT be avoided.
He has done many things to prove that he is not trustworthy. So his indignation at not being trusted is baseless and fraudulent. His attempts to change the subject or guilt you and manipulate you about not trusting him are just defensive reactions - he doesn't want to face the truth that you don't trust him because you have darn good reason to not trust him! To face that would mean that he has to really face and admit his behavior. But he wants to stay in that fantasy land where he's getting away with everything and not hurting anyone and his actions have no consequences. He ALSO knows, somewhere inside, that facing the truth and changing means *he has to stop what he's doing*.. and THAT is a thought that is just about impossible for him to face sometimes... as anyone who has dealt with addiction is well aware. It can be easy to think "I'll stop *tomorrow*... but one more time, right now.. is all right." But when tomorrow comes, then that is "right now"... and on and on.
I wish you guys were seeing a counselor and this could be discussed there. Because I think it is really important to bring out the trust issues into the light as truth, and face the reasons for them, and start the process of resolution.
Holten:It IS an addiction, Jane. That isn't excusing it. But it is an addiction as much as alcohol or drugs or whatever, because it is being used to try to fill some need.
Holten:But still... I believe the fact that you don't trust him, and that you have good reason for that, should NOT be avoided. He has done many things to prove that he is not trustworthy. So his indignation at not being trusted is baseless and fraudulent. His attempts to change the subject or guilt you and manipulate you about not trusting him are just defensive reactions - he doesn't want to face the truth that you don't trust him because you have darn good reason to not trust him! To face that would mean that he has to really face and admit his behavior. But he wants to stay in that fantasy land where he's getting away with everything and not hurting anyone and his actions have no consequences. He ALSO knows, somewhere inside, that facing the truth and changing means *he has to stop what he's doing*.. and THAT is a thought that is just about impossible for him to face sometimes... as anyone who has dealt with addiction is well aware. It can be easy to think "I'll stop *tomorrow*... but one more time, right now.. is all right." But when tomorrow comes, then that is "right now"... and on and on.
chaz345:Again, I absolutely agree with all of this. Don't avoid the lack of trust issue, I was just saying that that was probably not a constructive way to approach it.
I agree tact and sensitivity are required. I wasn't disagreeing with anything you said about it, Chaz. It took me some time to write my post, so we overlapped. I hadn't seen your post when I submitted mine.
Is it possible that his lack of interest in sex is about the shame and guilt he feels over his other activities?
I wish you guys were seeing a counselor ..
JaneFW:That depends when his "other activities" began. IMO, his lack of interest in sex began when he decided to ask me to marry him. Honestly! So, he may have been using porn then. We didn't live together right then, so he could have been doing anything he wanted to without me knowing, as I rarely used his computer at that time. When we were married and living together, I didn't even think about porn or checking the computer. I was too busy being a mom and too busy racking my brain about why on earth our sex life had died. It does seem that I became concerned at a very early stage about how he would minimize the screen when I came by, and why the history was always turned off. So, I dunno. He never would tell me the truth, I know that much, and he never has - maybe never will.
JaneFW: I read about the experiences of other couples who are in counseling and I feel envious. Even though it's a struggle and hard work, it seems to me that they are getting somewhere, even if it's a long process. For us, I don't think we moved an inch in years. But it's the financial angle of counseling. We are yet again struggling to get from month to month - and yet we have a really good income. It's craziness.
There are, or at least I'll bet there are, alternatives, Jane, if you search them out. We had a really excellent counselor before we moved. He helped us a lot. He was on full-time staff at a church, so the payment was up to us. He didn't have to worry about billable hours, so he chose to limit the number of people/couples he saw, and went deeper with them.
We found a counselor here associated with an arm of a big denomination. He, too, is on staff and our payment is what we decide it is. They have a "recommended contribution" scale, but it was very generous in terms of expectations.
I sent you a couple of places I found.
Regarding financecs...it is indeed craziness... but common. We struggle with the same thing. I look at the cash coming in and wonder why in the world do we ever feel pinched? It is a common story - "we spend whatever we make, no matter what we make". Progress can be slow. I know when we first finished Financial Peace University, we had to get out of consumer debt, THEN work on getting our emergency $1000 built up. Now that we're out of debt, we struggle to keep our $1000 kept up.
JaneFW: Do you really think that he knows that "he has to stop what he's doing"? If I just could even hope that he knows that it is wrong, I would feel so much better. It seems to me that he absolutely does not care. But that's probably me speaking from "feelings" and not from the head.
Well, you said two different things... and I realize I may have mixed them, too. First, does he KNOW that what he's doing is wrong? I think so. He's lying about it. And generally someone lies to their significant other because they know either 1) what they are doing is wrong, or 2) they know their spouse will think it is wrong or inappropriate.
As for your husband knowing whether what you''ve described is wrong... I find it very hard to believe he doesn't know. The man you've described doesn't strike me as a moron. If pressed or asked a general question and not specifically about himself, I think he'd say that a married man should not be flirtateously emailing and IMing and arranging to see another woman, not his wife.
The other question... does he KNOW he has to stop... this is where I might've mixed up a little. I do believe that somewhere inside he knows it's wrong, or he wouldn't be lying about it. I also believe that SOMEWHERE inside he realizes he shouldn't be doing something that he.. uh.. shouldn't be doing. But.. I think he's in the fantasy land of "getting away with it"...and, frankly, he seems to have a LOT of power of self delusion about just how ignorant you are of his activities.
So, if I did mix them, I have to step back. I have suffered from and dealt with addictive obssessive behavior, I can still struggle with those sorts of temptations. When a person is DEEP into their sin, when they believe they're "safe" and no one knows, then I think it's easy to delude yourself that you don't have to stop. You might even have the conscious thought "I'm going to have to stop this someday"... but... "someday" never comes, because now is always today, and today, it's OK.
Again.. the man you've described is not a moron. I don't understand a lot of his thinking and choices, but I can probably say that about anyone who isn't me. So I do NOT believe that he honestly thinks what he's doing and hiding and lying to you about is objectively good. He's in fantasy land, he's in denial, he's deep into his addiction and that is how he sees life. But I think there is a light in there somewhere... those moments of clarity, whenever they strike.. he actually feels emboldened... and then the spiritual battle starts and he folds.
