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I thank everyone for all your posts. Sorry I haven't responded until today.I'll respond to some individual posts soon. This issue hurts my faith so much that it makes me doubt if God even exists.Why? Because I don't understand how a loving God would create one gender tobe so vulnerable to porn and thus sexual sin. I understand that between 50% and90% of CHRISTIAN men use porn, yet the vast majority of women do not feel the pullof porn. What do women struggle with? Gossip? Is that a real struggle? Are theyADDICTED to gossip? I don't think so. I think gossip is a habit that a woman canmostly defeat without too much pain. There's no biological and chemical addictionto break. Basically what I'm saying is that men are screwed purely for being men. Men areespecially prone to violating God's rules in the sexual arena. And then, to add insult to injury, the Christian church is quick to pounce on men's particular sin of porn use, on a level that far exceeds how hard they come down on women's particular sins, like gossip.
I thank everyone for all your posts. Sorry I haven't responded until today.I'll respond to some individual posts soon.
This issue hurts my faith so much that it makes me doubt if God even exists.Why? Because I don't understand how a loving God would create one gender tobe so vulnerable to porn and thus sexual sin. I understand that between 50% and90% of CHRISTIAN men use porn, yet the vast majority of women do not feel the pullof porn. What do women struggle with? Gossip? Is that a real struggle? Are theyADDICTED to gossip? I don't think so. I think gossip is a habit that a woman canmostly defeat without too much pain. There's no biological and chemical addictionto break.
JaneFW,
You are correct in that this post has gone off topic and the original poster was absent for the discussion. He (flguy) did post yesterday and it is evident in that post he has a deeper issue which has nothing to do with women reading romance novels at all, but the fact that God made men to be susceptible to porn and women not as easily susceptible to sinful things.
Your comment "Yet, as this thread has progressed, it seems that in fact the argument is not that porn = romance novels, but rather that romantic novels are at fault for causing a wrongful expectation in women, which is just one aspect of porn, of course." is precisely what I've been saying all along. Porn does not compare to romance novels because porn has so many levels of hurt and sin OTHER than creating unrealistic expectations.
JaneFW:Oops I was wrong.I don't agree that men are being screwed for being men. I also don't believe that they are more prone to sinning than women are. We are ALL prone to sin. None is made more or less sinful than either, whether men or women, whether this race or that race, etc. Would this be an argument any of would take to God: "well Lord, you screwed me by making me a man." I mean, really?
Why don't you feel that men aren't screwed in particular? I'm saying that they are, because of their propensity to get hooked on porn. What women's sin(s) balances this out? What sin(s) do women primarily commit that is anywhere near as addictive as porn?
cherina91:You asked what sin(s) do women primarily commit that is anywhere near as addictive as porn? Well for starters, the women IN the porn are in as much sin as the viewer. It can be any sin. (drinking, drugs, gluttony, shop-a-holic, etc etc. We all sin.
You're right. What I meant to ask is what sin(s) do the MAJORITY of women commit, which very few men commit? The majority of women aren't compulsive shop-a-holics. Yet the majority of men are porn users, and I think have a compulsion (if not addiction) to use porn.
So the majority of men live breaking God's rules regularly. Is that fair of God? And is it fair of pastors to pounce on men for being men?
flguy: cherina91:You asked what sin(s) do women primarily commit that is anywhere near as addictive as porn? Well for starters, the women IN the porn are in as much sin as the viewer. It can be any sin. (drinking, drugs, gluttony, shop-a-holic, etc etc. We all sin. You're right. What I meant to ask is what sin(s) do the MAJORITY of women commit, which very few men commit? The majority of women aren't compulsive shop-a-holics. Yet the majority of men are porn users, and I think have a compulsion (if not addiction) to use porn. So the majority of men live breaking God's rules regularly. Is that fair of God? And is it fair of pastors to pounce on men for being men?
cherina91: Maybe someone else can answer your question better. I guess I`m alittle confused, but yet really trying to understand where you are comming from. I really don`t know what sin the majority of women commit, other than they commit all sorts of sins, some are just different than others. (which can really have a strong hold on them, just like porn can with men) I don`t know why one major sin like porn is worse than all sorts of other sins. They all affect the individual person itself, and those around them, no matter what sin it is. Like alcohol can have a real strong hold on women (and men) porn can have a real strong hold on women too. Alcohol or food can be a compulsion with people, as many other things. I would say most women are shop- a - holics... (compulsive spenders) buts thats another ball game. I wish I can understand you better man, sorry.
Maybe someone else can answer your question better. I guess I`m alittle confused, but yet really trying to understand where you are comming from. I really don`t know what sin the majority of women commit, other than they commit all sorts of sins, some are just different than others. (which can really have a strong hold on them, just like porn can with men) I don`t know why one major sin like porn is worse than all sorts of other sins. They all affect the individual person itself, and those around them, no matter what sin it is. Like alcohol can have a real strong hold on women (and men) porn can have a real strong hold on women too. Alcohol or food can be a compulsion with people, as many other things. I would say most women are shop- a - holics... (compulsive spenders) buts thats another ball game. I wish I can understand you better man, sorry.
ok - if most women are shop-a-holics, that would be a good example of a sin which most women commit, whereas most women don't. Likewise with porn - most men commit, but most women don't. I don't believe that most women are compulsive shop-a-holics, but I can't say for sure.
One of my main beefs with all this, as I've mentioned, is how the Christian church as a whole treats the sin of porn. As one poster said, most pastors are men, so they will naturally come down on men's sins more than women's sins because they know men's sins personally. Also, I think there's a fair amount of transference of guilt and shame. Just as some of the most vociferous critics of homosexuality are closet homosexuals, some of the most vocal critics of porn use are pastors who closetly use porn themselves.
So I'm saying that I'm greatly affected by the scorn and derision coming from the pulpit. How I wish there were at least 50% female pastors so they could rail on Sundays about compulsive shopping than on using porn!
JaneFW:Actually, there is a companion book to the Every Man's Battle book which is Every Woman's Battle, and the Setting Captives Free website course on sexual addiction is for women as well as men (it is same sex mentoring so men and women are not discussing this issue together.) There are lots of books along the same lines that are addressed to women, and many marriage books aimed at women also address the unreal expectations that can be triggered by reading romance books.
Sorry for the very late reply. Thanks for your post.
I wanted to comment on a couple things. First, about the Setting Captives Free website. I avoid that website like the plague, because I discovered many years ago that the founder, Mike Cleveland, believes that salvation can be lost. I consider this to be heresy. In my e-mails with Mike back then, I discovered that he believed that one's salvation can be lost if one doesn't defeat porn or any other habitual sin. I could see this atonement-cancelling thinking was tainting everything that website was teaching. Enough said about that.
And about the Every Man's Battle book. Like they say, don't get me started! I get angry after reading just a few pages of that junk. I won't list all the issues here I have with that book, and that series of books. See the critical reviews at amazon.com for what I'm talking about.
flguy
JaneFW:I wasn't advocating for either the SCF website or the EMB book, although my h used the latter and it helped him greatly. I was simply pointing out that this is obviously not a man only issue, or there would be no need for a companion book to EMB which is Every Woman's Battle, and there would not be a need for SCF to have a course for females addicted to porn. That was my point.Your concern with your church perhaps should be addressed to your pastor, if you feel that he is being harsh on the men of the church, and not addressing women's sins. There are churches which do not pick on genders in such a way. Again, our pastor addresses us *all* on the subject of sin, because he knows that we are *all* prone to sin. Any pastor that does not accept this is really not worth his (or her) salt.As for men being somehow "made" more likely to be tempted in this area than any other - God himself says that "No temptation has overtaken you except such as is common to man; but God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will also make the way of escape, that you may be able to bear it." (I Corinthians 10:13)Not ALL men are tempted by porn, or give in to that temptation. Some men abuse alcohol, some men are addicted to drugs, some men are violent, some men steal .. (and some women do those things too.) I just don't see that it is God's "fault" that men use porn. God didn't invent porn, men did (and women). Anyway, I feel like I am talking round in circles here!
JaneFW:Not ALL men are tempted by porn, or give in to that temptation. Some men abuse alcohol, some men are addicted to drugs, some men are violent, some men steal .. (and some women do those things too.) I just don't see that it is God's "fault" that men use porn. God didn't invent porn, men did (and women).
I thought of a way to explain my point better. Take the average woman. Pick a random woman in America. Is she likely to be an alcoholic? No. Is she likely to be an illegal drug user? No. Is she likely to be an addicted shop-a-holic? No even to that. Is she likely to be a porn user? No.
Now take an average man in America. Is he likely to be an alcoholic? No. Is he likely to be an illegal drug user? No. But is he likely to be a porn user? Yes!
That's my point. For a man to be an alcoholic, several things usually have to come into play. Likewise for drugs. But, for porn, very little has to happen. He pretty much just has to be male! Since the majority (>50%) of men use porn.
That's why I'm saying something isn't fair here.
I think a big reasoning for men more often than women to use porn or to indulge in lust is do to a taught and learned behavior. Early on from childhood and on boys are handled different than girls. Girls and women could be quite lustful and sexually aggressive if they were given the okay or approval to do it. Are men more susceptable to it? Yes. But if a man looks at porn mags, porn movies or goes to a strip club he is considered to just being male or a man by society in general. Women today are becoming porn users and more sexually aggressive these days, because society has given them the okay and women are reaching more common ground with men now on all levels.
Then there is the church and what does God say exactly about lust and porn. Well, God and his word calls it sin. So, then the church and it's ministers, leaders speak, teach and preach about it.
I don't believethat men more than women are incapable of not sinning in any one area of life, because God says otherwise. Maybe men have believed the lies of the world and Satan for too long that they can't pass by temptation. God says there NO TEMPTATION that can overtake you or grasp hold of you that you can't overcome. Some men will and some women will be more challenged with porn, lust than others will be. Then others may be more challenged in various other areas of temptation. I have my own and I'm sure most people do too.
We are all sinners saved soley by God's Grace! Be of good cheer for God knows your struggles and he knows your heart therefore we must keep humbly seeking him regardless of our shortcomings.
flguy: JaneFW:Not ALL men are tempted by porn, or give in to that temptation. Some men abuse alcohol, some men are addicted to drugs, some men are violent, some men steal .. (and some women do those things too.) I just don't see that it is God's "fault" that men use porn. God didn't invent porn, men did (and women). I thought of a way to explain my point better. Take the average woman. Pick a random woman in America. Is she likely to be an alcoholic? No. Is she likely to be an illegal drug user? No. Is she likely to be an addicted shop-a-holic? No even to that. Is she likely to be a porn user? No. Now take an average man in America. Is he likely to be an alcoholic? No. Is he likely to be an illegal drug user? No. But is he likely to be a porn user? Yes! That's my point. For a man to be an alcoholic, several things usually have to come into play. Likewise for drugs. But, for porn, very little has to happen. He pretty much just has to be male! Since the majority (>50%) of men use porn. That's why I'm saying something isn't fair here.
Are you saying that God is to blame or has some responsibility for the sin of porn? That God has victimized men?
Do you believe God's word to be the absolute truth?
Why not do a full study on sin in God's Word & let Him help you figure this out?
pooh girl: I think a big reasoning for men more often than women to use porn or to indulge in lust is do to a taught and learned behavior. Early on from childhood and on boys are handled different than girls. Girls and women could be quite lustful and sexually aggressive if they were given the okay or approval to do it. Are men more susceptable to it? Yes. But if a man looks at porn mags, porn movies or goes to a strip club he is considered to just being male or a man by society in general. Women today are becoming porn users and more sexually aggressive these days, because society has given them the okay and women are reaching more common ground with men now on all levels.
I know you are correct to some extent. But I think that men's innate nature plays a much bigger role. I remember being sexually attracted to girls visually when I was about 12 or 13. Then I started to naturally do things by myself. I wasn't taught it. I didn't learn it. I just discovered it, and it was nearly immediate.
Perhaps women are becoming more frequent porn users today. But some of them (like an earlier poster here) aren't watching because they want to see naked men. So there doesn't seem the likelihood of addiction, which many men suffer from in this arena. I don't think women will ever use porn as much as men, no matter if the stigma against them using it disappears altogether. They just don't think or desire that way as much.
pooh girl: I don't believethat men more than women are incapable of not sinning in any one area of life, because God says otherwise. Maybe men have believed the lies of the world and Satan for too long that they can't pass by temptation. God says there NO TEMPTATION that can overtake you or grasp hold of you that you can't overcome. Some men will and some women will be more challenged with porn, lust than others will be. Then others may be more challenged in various other areas of temptation. I have my own and I'm sure most people do too.
I'm not saying that it's impossible for men to resist the pull of porn. I'm saying it's so difficult that most men can't do it. And yet there's no counterpart - there's nothing that most women can't resist.
So how does that not make God unfair?
Take this analogy. Let's say that God made a rule that all adults must speak in a high-pitched voice all the time, a pitch that say 90% of women already naturally speak above, because of the shape of their vocal chords. Now most men would naturally fail at this. Yet they could do it. It would be difficult. It would take constant effort. But it is not impossible. So the temptation to not speak at that high-pitch voice isn't something that can't be overcame. Yet it would be terribly unfair of God, would it not? How is that really much different than the requirement to not lust visually (and thus not use porn)?
BcauseHeLives: Are you saying that God is to blame or has some responsibility for the sin of porn? That God has victimized men?
Yes, I do - I believe God has some responsibility for the sin of porn, because He made men the way He made them, visually stimulated.
I think it's definitely possible that some very wicked men have upset God in the distant past so much that He condemned all of us to easily violate His rule on visual lust. But women today have been spared, because women from the past haven't upset God nearly as much.
BcauseHeLives: Why not do a full study on sin in God's Word & let Him help you figure this out?
That sounds like good advice. Thank you.
