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formerlyalpha:

The prevention options may be there - somewhere, but it's always seen as for "others".

This is exactly the problem with focusing only on prevention. It's also why much of the pre-maritial counsiling out there is ineffective.


That prevention methods will never be attempted or applied by some until they are in a different mode entirely is why I say that in this case, no, prevention is not better than cure. To a large extent prevention is already helping everyone it's going to. Does that mean I'm saying it should stop? Of course not. But OTOH we can't sit her and pretend that the divorce problem will be solved or even significantly impacted by more or better prevention type solutions. We need "cure" tyep solutions. Things that can work even after one spouse has already "checked out". And given the nature of that situation, anything along those lines is going to have to involve making divorce more difficult or more painful for the one filing without biblical grounds.

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Chaz345

chaz345:

another name:

Targeting does not imply an accurate aim.  So many of those prevention efforts miss the mark and usually because they are predicated on both spouses being in a place which allows them to accept the message.  How realistic is it to treat a diseased marriage but expect both spouses to be healthy at least on an individual level?  That measure of health is mandated in order to properly respond to the message.  The truth is the marriage is critically ill because at least one spouse is wayward and not apt to accept the message of these preventative efforts.

When I heard prevention rather than cure, I assumed that we were talking about marriages that were already or still basically healthy. Cure would apply to diseased marriages. Most of the programs of the type I mention focus mainly on the situation of looking at a good marriage and making it better. Sure they often have some portions on what to do if you are already in trouble but the focus is makng healthy marriages better or helping to make sure a healthy marriage stays that way.

  I left the quotes here in order to better keep track of this one specific point I am adressing in this post.

 

Thank you for reminding me.  It is not mere semanitcs which distinguishes prevention from cure.  However, in an earlier post you had stated that (I paraphrase) prevention is woefully ineffective in most cases.  That there are so many diseased marriages supports this. 

So cure is what's left.  And even there (staying with the analogy) the patient has the right to refuse treatment.  Only, in the case of marriage, the patient is composed of two spouses who are not acting as one.

Prevention being better that cure is a foundational mantra in the fruit growing industry.
Sprays are applied in advance of the likely onset of a disease. If the grower just keeps his fingers crossed, he might be lucky, but once disease has struck, by the time he gets the spray program under way the crop has been ruined. Consequently, the growers make preventative action a regular part of their seasonal management program.

Marriages can often riding on that "luck" approach. The grower knows the risk. Married people ignore the risk, pretend it does not exist, or that it will not trouble them.

Actually, there is one expert on marriage relationships who believes that the divorce risk to a given couple can be identified during courtship. That allows the couple to take steps to rectify whatever is wrong, or to re-evaluate whether they should call it quits before the marriage.That is cold comfort to the already married.

One reason pre-marital counseling is often ineffective is due the nature of their starry-eyed love. That surging romantic love that overwhelms them with the feelgood factor. They can't imagine that their marriage will ever be in trouble. They are convinced they can live on love alone. Not a good time for screeds of advice. It either has to be given to young people before they even start dating, or it has to be given after they are married. After the honeymoon reality kicks in, and they are more willing to listen. But a lot of the marriages in trouble never had that post-marriage assistance, and several years later when the wheels are falling off, they may end up in counseling, contemplating divorce.

There is a whole lot more that can be done to alert couples to the true state of their marriage. Like the survey of pastor couples that asked if they were happy in their marriage. The anonymous survey showed that many more wives that husbands were unhappy. Yet the husbands of those wives thought their wives were O K, and the wives never ever divulged to those husbands just what they were feeling.
And that also raises the question: why do couples have this misunderstanding of each other? That survey was of pastor couples, pastors like the ones who are guiding your church!  Maybe women/wives should have more input into the sermon/program curriculum of the average church? That may help put human relationships in the box seat - which is where the N T puts them.

Again, does this come back to those brain differences? Husbands are oblivious to their wives true state of feelings re the marriage. And wives - for whatever reason - cannot bring themselves to let him know. Let's suppose such a marriage has been intact for 20yrs. During that time, the male, being true to his male brain wiring, thinks that things are O K, at least sufficiently O K to not need attention.

 But suppose the wife loses her happiness about the marriage at the rate of 5% each year. Such a small change would not be noticed by the husband after just one year, or in each succeeding year. But after 14yrs of incremental loss of happiness, her happiness quotient scale would fall below 50%. From that point on, she may start toying with the idea of leaving.  Especially if during all those years the husband had never changed, or even looked like changing in those areas that caused her to loose her marital enjoyment. Maybe she had dropped hints, but he was deaf to them.

Perhaps she was trying to convey her unhappiness in a wife's code language  - like being uncooperative etc - but in a language he never learned to read. His brain tells him all is well, at least while she is still coming to bed with him. But if she started to sleep in another room, suddenly he would wonder what was going on.

But it's a well known trait of wives that they are usually the first to be aware of some lack in the marriage. That is why the wife's side of the bed will sport a range of relationship books, while the husband's  side has none, unless she has given it to him, and then he's not likely to read it. Not unless she hammers away at him.

A stereotype but largely correct.  As I had mentioned in another thread here, the typical gender roles are reversed in my marriage.  Since my very early youth I have been a voracious reader so that could explain why the books are on my "side of the bed".  More so, the explanation is I had learned in my adolesence how to spot trouble in relationships. Communication is the key.  Yet even this understanding was not enough. 

My wife projects an innocence and quietness so profound it is as if she wants only to be left alone.  Her sensitivities were bruised by my seemingly brusque behaviors.  Most peculiar here is I married one of maybe three people that I can remember who were so fragile they perceived me as uncaring and brutish.  Yet I am very sensitive to others and fervently try to put myself in their shoes. That is the tragic irony; I am perceived as something I am not.  When my true nature is acknowledged, it is only to dismiss.  I suspect partly because of the reversal of the typical gender roles I am ridiculed as not being sufficient as a man. 

The reversal also applies to my wife.  When I hear or read women complaining how their husband won't talk to them, won't look at them, barely acknowledges them as a person,  or that they feel lonely in their marriage, I can relate.  To my wife I was a meal ticket and my business a cash cow.  I was not included in family get togethers except as a last thought, she planned vacations without me knowing, or several times, until literally as she was boarding a plane or did not return home that night leaving me wondering, etc.  Yes, I know what these women are saying when I hear of their troubles.

Too, I feel the stigma of seeking counseling but have not let that stop me.  Quit literally all have fallen short and that is my response to any who seek to mock the one making the effort to stay healthy. 

 

When your wife failed to go to that FL marriage seminar, and you later came to understand that she had this vast reservoir of hurt, you hit the jackpot. That is basically what is sinking many marriages. The husband is, until then, largely unaware of this that has been building in her for years. But maybe as Chaz said, it's not until things fall apart that he is able to see it, and then it could be too late.

That hurts.  Of course you didn't mean it, how could you know....  What hurts is this too is a gender stereotype and I being male am perceived as unknowing and/or uncaring.  In this case, I am labeled as responsible for her hurt.  I am the cause of her hurt because I am unknowing.  I am the perpetuator of her hurt because I am uncaring.  This is the stereotype which one must fight against.  The problem here is twofold;  this presents another front in the battle and it allows people to falsely beleive they have an understanding.  Why continue to seek that which you already have?  If a third party believes they understand to the measure required, why would they seek to develop a true belief?  In this way a false belief masks and inhibits developing a real understanding. 

Anyway, this vast hurt in my wife (and it is vast) stems from before me.  Renee on the old FL forum labled this a "Spirit of Rejection".  Boy, and how!  Arising from her deep seated hurts, my wife expected to be hurt.  To a hammer all is a nail; to my wife everything I said or did was perceived to be accusatory and diminishing of her.  She was conditioned by others to expect to be put down.  I have not ever been so misunderstood in my life. 

The problem I created was my wont to directly address her words and behaviors.  That is my natural response.  I now realize how better for me to been more diplomatic (I think that the most correct word in this case).

This Spirit of Rejection was pervasive even to coloring my suggestions for marriage counseling as worthless and futile, not amounting to anything, won't change anything, a waste of money and time.

Even still, I accept the responsibility.  My own sensitivities permitted me to feel hurt and it influenced my behaviors and interaction with my wife.  If only I could break through and get her to realize I am her friend and not intent to harm her we could work together on making our marriage wonderful.  Silly me. 

Even though it was from the very early days of our marriage that I was deeply concerned for the trouble brewing, it wasn't until only a couple years ago that I realized I had presumed a desire in her equal to mine to want to acknowledge, then fix the problems.  I am now acutely aware she could not acknowledge her part.  Still I am hopeful.

Hopefully, you are still reading.  I want to make this final point; how as Christians can we ever believe it to be too late?  To me, such a belief rubs against the very essence of our professed faith.  It is obvious to me that what I say is atypical and not shared by the majority.  What am I missing?  I desire some clarity in this.

Your friends describe a kind of catch22 type of mindset in your wife. She is in pain, you caused the pain, (that is her take) she wants to avoid more pain, so she has to avoid you. So how can you repair your relationship with her, when every time you approach her she backs away from you. It's like trying to grab a moving object. Could that explain why she opted out of that seminar?

 

I agree there is that cycle.  And there is the million dollar question; how to reconcile when all she wants is separation???

As for her backing out of the WTR seminar:  she first broached this over the phone.  In that conversation I didn't directly 'attack' her change of mind, rather I simply reiterated the spiel of how valuable it would be to attend.  Later in that convesation she said she didn't want to share a room with me.  That I addressed by saying there are rooms available and I was willing to reserve and pay for a separate room for her.  The way she stated this sounded contrived as if she felt she had to offer a logical 'reason'.  As much as I know my wife, it was the suddenly changed tenor of her voice and the inflection which prompted me to think she was fishing for an excuse.  She cinched it when she said it would be "too weird" to be in separate rooms (other couples would know and this would be embarrassing to Kathy).

That was when I was in Washington state.  Within the week I was flying down to California.  I told her I would like to stop by to see her.  To this she had only the slightest hesitation to agreeing to this.  Her hesitation was a response to her not knowing when I would arrive (the exact hour) so many days in advance.  That hesitation is typical of her due to her innate need to have exact itineraries.  I was flying my small plane 700 nm through adverse weather so it was difficult for me to provide an exact time.

When I did arrive (God in heaven, right on time as planned several days prior) she invited me into her home.  It was the day before the seminar and it was not only me truly wanting to see my wife but an opportunity to encourage her to attend the seminar with me.  I sat on a couch while she busied herself with researching her geneology in another room for several hours.  Finally she came out and sat on another couch to speak with me.  We talked idly for less than an hour and it was warm and nice.  She seemed relaxed and engaging.  Suddenly she stood up and walked to the front door and told me to leave.  I was flummoxed and asked what happened.  She repeated herself only now it was more of a demand.  I met her at the door and half turned to face her, to speak.  She picked up the phone to dial the police which she did.  All she had to do was press the SEND button.  I left.  I did not cause a commotion, slam the door, or any such thing.  I simply slouched as I walked to the airport to fly away.

Certainly I have tried to make sense of her up and down behaviors.  Certainly I suspected she has someone on the side and I was interfering.  Perhaps her initial hesitation was her wondering if she could squeeze me in.  I realize these are dangerous thoughts and I have to warn myself not to heed them.

All I can conclude after all this time is I have very little understanding.  That and knowing I sometimes acted poorly.  Still, I am puzzled as I wonder how my occasional wrong headed thinking could so deeply trigger a whole set of emotions and a profound hurt.  I must have blinders on because I just don't see that kind of casual relationship, indeed, that proportionate response.  I mean, as it relates to me.  Her behaviors are very reminiscent of patterned behaviors of her father...resentment, silent bitterness, non-communicative, open neglect.

Brother, I apologize for once again turning this back to me and this marriage.  And I despise talking ill of my wife.  Yet I will not erase what I have written for I wish to convey the desperation in my reaching out for understanding and the answer to that million dollar question.  I believe this understanding to be more valuable than the individual for it portends to a greater future in a Godly marriage full of love as we witness for His glory.  I would not pretend to put myself or any other person above that most noblest of goals.

P S. Here is what a catch22 is.
      "A situation in which a desired outcome or solution is impossible to attain because of a set of inherently illogical rules or conditions."
      "A situation or predicament characterized by absurdity or senselessness."
      "A tricky or disadvantageous condition."
Now, does that describe some marriage reconciliation scenarios?

PS:  thank you for the description of a Catch22 condition.  I've read that book at least 7 times yet I am not being sarcastic in the least.  Truly, thank you.

To address your question:  I don't believe the 1st applies to my marriage.  The 2nd...maybe.  Yeah, it seems absurd that we do not come to an understanding, ie, a shared desire.  There is the aspect of it being senseless.  In one way that applies to me for I too am deeply hurt yet I do not let that stop me in my efforts to reconcile.  Is it senseless that I expect my wife to behave that same way?  It's rhetorical.  :)   It's senseless to me that she has aptly demonstrated a deep desire to run.  From the earliest days but ever more as the yrs went by she had wanted out.  No, she wouldn't say but her actions were most revealing.  In later yrs, she would say.  All pretesion gone as far as I knew.  I say "as far as I knew" because third parties would report to me that Kathy was very desirious to reconcile.  Even into this yr, this past summer, I heard that what Kathy told was she wanted to stay married.  Yet, every thing she says and does says no no no.  As far as I know.  Someone is lying.  That's a fact, jack.  I will allow that maybe she really does want this marriage but is afraid to admit it to me.  That then poses the question:  What have I done so terribly to create this condition in her where she is afraid of me?  Holy puzzlement Batman, I haven't a clue.  And I'm a smart, intelligent, rational, logical, emotive, sensitive, big hearted, kind, empathizing guy.  I'm not some brickhead yet I do not have a clue.  It's very frustrating.  For many yrs I've made it my mission to understand and I'm failing!

The 3rd certainly, absolutely applies.  Over the course of our entire marriage, our relationship has been precarious.  I sensed this the first month we married.  Compared to the 4 yrs we dated, it was a monumental change.  Before marriage, we were like two peas in a pod, happy, smiling, hearts throbbing.  We had fun, she couldn't wait to get home from work to spend time with me.  But it wasn't just fun.  We shared the ups and downs of each other's lives and it was good.  We felt each other, there was a deep connection. The 2nd yr we knew each other she saw the worst yr of business for me.  She saw me depressed over money woes, I saw her starting a new life coming out of bankruptcy and a divorce with a young daughter.  But it was okay.  We drew strength from one another.  She got me started in church after a 15 yr hiatus.  Everyone thought us the perfect couple.  I cannot count how many times people asked us when is the big day.  It was going to happen, we just hadn't reached a date.

Yes, it was a disadvantaged beginning.  Yet we held a fervent hope.  Our wedding was diastrous.  It was the worst wedding I'd ever been to and not because I was the groom.  We ran out of food, the photographer kept us too long, people were leaving, I ended up cleaning the reception hall because the cleaning crew no-showed, the lady in charge of the reception rushed me, she literally hung on my arm and said I need to do this, do that.  The video guy fell asleep but knocked the camera to focus (out of focus) on a potted plant where it remained the entire wedding.  And her daughter glared at me--shot daggers at me.  Kathy suggested I give her daughter a flower from her bouquet.  I did and her daughter let it fall to the floor and never did pick it up.  Kathy's mother glared at me, her sister wouldn't speak to me nor would she allow her boys to talk to me.

Go ahead and laugh if you must but I still am ashamed of that day.  Not only all those things but it seems to have been a foretelling, a precursor, of what was to unfold.  Superstition?   Not too many yrs ago my mother asked me what happened to me.  I used to laugh, I was funny, I made people laugh, I surfed, mtn biked, hiked, sailed, was full of life.  Just a few days ago a friend told me I had sacrificed my vitality for my marriage.  And they are right!  I gave up those things to spend time with my wife.  I treasured her and desired to spend time with her.  Before we married she would at least try those things with me.  After we married she wouldn't even walk along the beach with me--one of her favorite things.  So I stopped doing those things.  I had my reasons but I wonder how much a fault was this.

That the object is moving is no fault in it.  It does what it does, perhaps because it was made to move.  Or perhaps someone set it in motion.  In any case I try not to assign blame.  I suppose this is a round about way of leading back to answering that million dollar question.

It's a wild guess but the only real, plausible answer I can fathom is that God has allowed me to seek my own way.  After all, I was very mad at Him for much of these past 4 yrs.  It is only know that I am trying to regain my position with Him.  The Holy Spirit used to speak to me, I haven't heard anything for about a yr now.  I've been stymied only now even more deeply.

 

There, I've said my piece.  I'm exhausted from the mental anguish of composing this letter.  I just needed to let it out.  I beg your forgiveness.

Addndum:

Two points:

1--I see I am blaming my wife.  One way is I blame her for not communicating in a relatable way.  Another is vicariously through her father's bad behaviors.  Another is I want (demand?) her to take responsibility for her actions. And it is I who decides if she has or has not.  Like a judge.

2--I recognize that I have indulged in that behavior I so stridently seek to avoid.  I am, under the guise of "taking responsibility", accepting blame for the behaviors of someone else, namely my wife.  At once I acknowledge her unwanted behaviors but then assign myself as cause for those behaviors.  By assuming responsibility I prevent or inhibit true ownership and the attendant accountability of those behaviors.  This acts to send mixed messages and confound any attempt to right the wrong.  Any lessons here are applicable to all relationships, or at least a warning.

Well, a.n., here's another cliche, "opposites attract".
Like there is an unconscious seeking out of someone who has the qualities that we lack, in an attempt to find completion. The loud person is drawn to a quiet one, and the reverse.
You mention a.n., that your wife was very sensitive, and you came across as "brusque". That is the kind of difference that is usually the result of our respective upbringings.

 Somewhere between our birth and our wedding day, a process of shaping has taken place, resulting in what we are at the point of marriage. That is why it's said we all enter marriage with our own "baggage". Usually by "baggage" is meant various unhelpful features of our personality and behaviour.Things that need sorting out. Mostly, we are blind to those. But our spouse quickly recognizes them, as we do hers.
That is where a lot of marital problems get under way.

What we are is the result of a combination of nurture and nature. Family attitudes, parents treatment of the child, the condition of the parent's marriage, school experiences, and so on, have all contributed to what we are.
Now, if we have absorbed things that have so shaped us with annoying features, and  those traits/behaviours become an irritant to our spouse, the only way we are going to know is if they tell us. The likelihood is that we - and they - will be resistant to having our defects pointed out by our spouse.
 
Because when they say those things they have assumed a role different to what we expected when we married them. They are now being our judge, not our mate, so we become resistant. Then we give as good as we get, by naming and shaming them for their defects. And the whirlpool begins to spin.

All this is dormant during courtship. It is only after the wedding that both relax enough to display their true selves. That is why the first year of marriage affords an opportune time to get some outside objective marriage input. I also think that couples who enroll in a marriage program soon after the wedding will learn the art of expressing any problems before they become so enormous as to be an impediment. That will give them a head start in being able to broach topics like the hurts that can come when two different people are trying to get welded together.
Once the slanging match has been going for years, and both have retreated into their respective fighting corners, there can develop a resistance to doing anything.
At that point they may be adamant that it is all the other person's fault. The die is then cast for protracted war. Such couples are much harder get into a marriage assistance program, and less likely to benefit from one.

I think that is where "prevention is better than cure" can have it's application.

A.n., as for you being seen as having hurt your wife, that is not something that any man is throwing at you, either on these forums or probably even elsewhere, as far as I can tell. It is what wives generally are saying about their husbands. Men can get hurt by their wives, but, speaking for myself, and most men I know, they don't have that perfect recall of everything hurtful she has ever done.
In fact, if their wife was to snuggle up to them and whisper "I love you", all would be forgiven and forgotten in a moment. That is how men are different to women. Wives can't forgive and forget even if they wanted to, or so it seems, at least not as easily as a husband. ( I'm not demeaning wives by saying that, I'm trying to get perspective on those gender variants.)  But I will concede there may be exceptions.

It takes more than just knowledge. Reading books about marriage is beneficial, but that understanding has to worked out in real life. e.g. A person can learn the road code, and pass all relevant exams, but sooner or later he/she has to get behind the wheel and actually drive. That is the acid test of whether they are capable of being on the road.
That is why marriage skills are better caught than taught. That is where parents come in. Children are meant to learn the skills and the nuances of male/ female relationships as they grow up throughout childhood. It then becomes 2nd nature to treat their spouse correctly. In lieu of that kind of upbringing, marriage mentoring and marriage programs are the next best line of defense against a failing marriage.

Of course I'm still reading a.n., I appreciate and respect all the things you say. It's true, that every marriage has, like every snowflake, an identity of it's own. We can only deal with general principles, but there are always those unique factors in each marriage.

I'm of the opinion, that the answer to a particular marriage impasse has to be tailor made. In a case like yours, that defies the usual run-of-the-mill advice. You can only seek that answer from Almighty God. When I referred to "too late" I was reflecting what the stats indicate.
I suspect, but can't prove, that there are christian marriages where God has not been sought sufficiently for Him to bring the answer. In saying that I'm not judging anyone else, because I don't know all the circumstances. It's just a guess, a gut-level feeling.

You may have had a disastrous wedding. But note, Jesus first miracle was at a wedding. So He is not a disinterested observer of your situation.

PS. Those catch22 definitions were quotes from Answers.com dictionary, and not invented by me.

Alpha, I earnestly thank you for your reply as well as your genereal interest in this subject.

With respect to that baggage and the way it is dealt with, I'd say that even without a consideration of the different gender-specific wiring we are predisposed to fail in relationships.  Yet there are many marriages which remain intact 30, 40, 50 or more years.  To reconcile this I conclude it is not so much in cleaning up one's act as an individual but their desire to remain which is the primary motivation which keeps a marriage going.  Sure, every little bit helps so squaring up the baggage does have it's value. 

An analogy would be joining two pieces of wood.  One may have a knot or other defect, or in choosing which joint to use a consideration is made in how structural the assembly has to be.  Yet, short of utterly discarding a piece of wood, it is used as it is presented.  The proper joint will fulfill what is required of it.  Never is a piece, once selected, asked to change itself.   Lacking skill and care, an ill fitting joint will be made and it will be weak, no matter how superior the wood is.  Whether marrying (joining together) wood or people, it is how they dovetail to one another which is the key.  This is how I reconcile the fact there are many longlasting marriages to the fact that all of us have baggage.  What skills do these people have which has made their marriages so extraordinary?  Yes, I consider a long marriage to be extraordinary.  What keeps these spouses from changing their mind so much that they fall out of marriage?  I suspect the answer lies internally to each individual.

 

With respect to the long memory of hurts, several times in 2007-08, my wife asked me to list the ways she hurt me.  I refused to provide a list on the grounds I believed it would devastate her.  Only recently do I wonder if perhaps she was asking for help.  I did write a list but did not share it with her.  It's a Word doc 11 pages with only a double space between each hurt.  It makes me sick to reread it for it makes it look like she is a terrible person.  I did not include what I term the 'normal, daily, petty' hurts.  Most telling is it isn't only the number of transgressions but the type, the severity of each which is terrible. (Several hurts are of a great magnitude but outside of my control so I know I could not resolve.)  Still, I strongly desire to remain in this marriage. So, perhaps the difference 'tween men and women is not the ability to recall but in the fortitude one possess which allows them to continue to move forward in marriage.  This is my answer to possessing a recall of what has been done.

Yes, the "road code".  I agree with your summation.  However, I for one can speak of the difficulty of procuring even a satisfactory counselor.  Yes, the patient should be 'teachable' and open to relearning what has been taught by bad parenting yet even after many years of counseling the odds of success are marginal on the individual level.  This is why I again state I think how a couple interacts--dovetails--is more conducive to a fulfilling relationship.  This all assumes each person would desire to maintain a healthy relationship.

Obversely, one may want to sabotage their relationships for a plethora of reasons.

I suppose this is an excuse, but my former Pastor of 18 yrs commented to me that only a miracle could reunite my wife and I.  "And it might be too late for even that.", he said.  I was so disheartened to hear that from this man of God who I had trusted for so many yrs.  He married us.  I felt betrayed and dismissed.  The excuse part is perhaps I transferred that negative emotion to my perception of God.  This plus the last several yrs treatment by the church and Deacons have aided my consternation.  This I have fought internally because I still believe it is my own doing and that I cannot blame others for my lack of accountability.  So it's another front in the battle.  It has been so very discouraging to experience the treatments of my brothers in Christ.

This last I only include here to illustrate one circumstance which can prevent a person from turning to their Lord...even when they know better.  When the flotsam of circumstance piles high against you, it is so easy to become discouraged.  The natural decision is to seek shelter, to hide from the opposing wind and tides.  Inward, away from others.

Please, to all who read this, be mindful of the hurt you could perpetuate on another.  While you remind them to be of good cheer, they ask you to be encouraging. 

 

Lastly,  notwithstanding the orgins of the C22 definition, I still am thankful you shared it.

another name:

But it's a well known trait of wives that they are usually the first to be aware of some lack in the marriage. That is why the wife's side of the bed will sport a range of relationship books, while the husband's  side has none, unless she has given it to him, and then he's not likely to read it. Not unless she hammers away at him.

A stereotype but largely correct. 

Maybe largely correct but I think in large part it's self fulfilling. IOW men don't participate in marriage improvement because they are told that they don't.   Additionally I think that a man trying to improve his marriage in the way that's natural to him is often characterized as him doing nothing because the woman's way is viewed and and portrayed as inherently superior.

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Chaz345

chaz345:

another name:

But it's a well known trait of wives that they are usually the first to be aware of some lack in the marriage. That is why the wife's side of the bed will sport a range of relationship books, while the husband's  side has none, unless she has given it to him, and then he's not likely to read it. Not unless she hammers away at him.

A stereotype but largely correct. 

Maybe largely correct but I think in large part it's self fulfilling. IOW men don't participate in marriage improvement because they are told that they don't.   Additionally I think that a man trying to improve his marriage in the way that's natural to him is often characterized as him doing nothing because the woman's way is viewed and and portrayed as inherently superior.

That's how I see it, too. In addition, I see the fact that this is such a stubborn sterotype as evidence that there is a consensus that really refuses to look at any reality that doesn't match what they've already decided to impose upon an entire gender.

formerlyalpha:

Perhaps she was trying to convey her unhappiness in a wife's code language  - like being uncooperative etc - but in a language he never learned to read. His brain tells him all is well, at least while she is still coming to bed with him. But if she started to sleep in another room, suddenly he would wonder what was going on.

In a case like that who is responsible for his cluelessness? Most of the time we see it portrayed as a willful choice on his part to ignore her pleadings that couldn't have been more clear. That's obviously not the case. Obviously in many cases the husband could and should do more to try to "speak woman" but at the same time doesn't she also need to "speak man"? And yet most of the time that second part is ignored because her way is supposedly inherently superior.

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Chaz345