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BHL--I don't see this difference you're talking about.
If you read it differently and that's all there is to it, that would hint at a desire to be in one accord. If you read it differently and therefore dismiss what I saw, won't give it any thought/consideration, then it's a dead subject. Since you've not committed to either one, I'll regard it as dead. ( I thought it was anyway, before the subject was picked right back up).
BcauseHeLives: Actually you didn't want to post it here Dallas, but I told you it'd be a good idea so I'll take responsibility for convincing you to do it. I'm not convinced yet that this guy is off his rocker. But I do intend to read it & really pick through it to see if I missed the boat on this one. I do regret that you guys find it so offensive. I'm praying that it's because it truly is offensive & not for other reasons. I'm not trying to offend, I'll be honest, I feel as though anything some of us says or posts here it won't be good. I do apologize for the comment above in stating that maybe you guys feel as this guy is describing some men feel. I was wrong, it was said in pure frustration w/out thinking of how it would make you feel. HI - I read it differently. I will admit I was at work & speed read the article. But the way I read it was that he does believe that feminism in it's current form is causing problems for men, but it's because the women are feeling attacked. He does believe that the men are getting the shaft. He's not saying they aren't but that the way that men are going about fighting back is completely wrong. It's going on the defensive & attacking instead of working with the women. Maybe I should link you guys to the horrible things being said about women in this anti-feminism movement. Then let you re-read some of the stuff you guys are saying here. It's this constant need to be upset that women have things like a heart attack awareness, etc & that you find it so offensive as if women don't need that stuff. As if we're stealing it from you guys. There were other like threads here as well. And each time a sin of men is brought up we hear "yeah well women are part of it" yes we know that, but you're men deal w/your part of the sins...? It's so frustrating, and I know that nothing I say here will make a bit of difference. It's not an us or them situation...that's what I read him to say. We need to work together. Keep all the good that was done for the women & work at strengthening the men. If this isn't a solution, please tell me what is? We've done enough discussing the problem...are you going to ever move onto the solution? Each time us ladies try to we're told we missed the boat. So we quite literally cannot help you in this. But can you hear us w/out being defensive? You all are making us feel beat up. Dallas' intent on posting this was to help not hurt. She is trying to understand & help...as am I & other ladies here. It seems that unless we move to understand & help to move forward this family forum will continue to be over-run w/this stuff. And a lot of it is so disheartening to me & I know to other ladies. Do you want us to ignore it? Just not pay any attention to it? Let you discuss & stay out of it? What do you want from us?
Actually you didn't want to post it here Dallas, but I told you it'd be a good idea so I'll take responsibility for convincing you to do it. I'm not convinced yet that this guy is off his rocker. But I do intend to read it & really pick through it to see if I missed the boat on this one.
I do regret that you guys find it so offensive. I'm praying that it's because it truly is offensive & not for other reasons. I'm not trying to offend, I'll be honest, I feel as though anything some of us says or posts here it won't be good.
I do apologize for the comment above in stating that maybe you guys feel as this guy is describing some men feel. I was wrong, it was said in pure frustration w/out thinking of how it would make you feel.
HI - I read it differently. I will admit I was at work & speed read the article. But the way I read it was that he does believe that feminism in it's current form is causing problems for men, but it's because the women are feeling attacked. He does believe that the men are getting the shaft. He's not saying they aren't but that the way that men are going about fighting back is completely wrong. It's going on the defensive & attacking instead of working with the women.
Maybe I should link you guys to the horrible things being said about women in this anti-feminism movement. Then let you re-read some of the stuff you guys are saying here. It's this constant need to be upset that women have things like a heart attack awareness, etc & that you find it so offensive as if women don't need that stuff. As if we're stealing it from you guys. There were other like threads here as well. And each time a sin of men is brought up we hear "yeah well women are part of it" yes we know that, but you're men deal w/your part of the sins...? It's so frustrating, and I know that nothing I say here will make a bit of difference.
It's not an us or them situation...that's what I read him to say. We need to work together. Keep all the good that was done for the women & work at strengthening the men.
If this isn't a solution, please tell me what is? We've done enough discussing the problem...are you going to ever move onto the solution? Each time us ladies try to we're told we missed the boat. So we quite literally cannot help you in this.
But can you hear us w/out being defensive? You all are making us feel beat up.
Dallas' intent on posting this was to help not hurt. She is trying to understand & help...as am I & other ladies here.
It seems that unless we move to understand & help to move forward this family forum will continue to be over-run w/this stuff. And a lot of it is so disheartening to me & I know to other ladies.
Do you want us to ignore it? Just not pay any attention to it? Let you discuss & stay out of it?
What do you want from us?
I want you and me to get along better in here than we have been, the last 6 months. I think that when you speak one on one with somebody, only presenting your thoughts, you have so much powerful stuff to share. And I miss it.
I wish you would quit making statements like "I know that nothing I say here will make any difference", and then proceed to talk." I UNDERSTAND the frustration--that's not the problem I have! It's that after understanding you, I still have to have a basis on which to relate to you. And double-binding messages like that are making it very difficult--at times, temporarily impossible.
BHL, I can't lump you in with the other women in this forum ( hear about what "you all" are trying to do, respond to questions of "what you guys want "us" to do), since I've not seen "you all" sharing the same goals that I've heard you talking about. I re-read some threads. In some cases, I am not able to remember even one time of reading a mention of bringing glory to God's kingdom in some of the other women's posts. Not even the evidence of wanting that underneath what else was said. So I'll respond to what you are saying only as though talking to you.
I told you before about this point: I personally moved to a solution, when I opened up a thread in the men's forum. And look: you are still asking "if this isn't a solution, what is?" "Are you ever going to move to the solution?" I don't know what is going on, that unless I move to a solution that resembles this article, wanting to work with feminism, that you don't see it, don't acknowledge it (unless I bring it up, myself). I move along on my own, without seeking your input, not because I don't value your input--but rather because this wall is there, and I had the idea that you really didn't have any desire to help me.
If, at the heart of any person's thinking is, "feminism is causing some troubles today because of, and then the blank is filled with a blaming statement", I won't join hands with that person. That person is following a way of thinking that simply has made what one person does to be another person's fault. Period. Disagree? If you do, I still wanted that question to be, "Would you be willing to help in some other way that we both agree on????" "Are you willing to find that other way?"
Can the guys here listen without being defensive? As loaded as I see that question as being, I have to say I understand why you would ask it, and what I hear behind the question moves me to answer. The choice to be defensive must be strictly owned by anyone who has been doing it (including me!). But I don't see many people in here really taking responsibility for the power of their influence, when it comes to turning things around. For that reason, let me tell you two things that I know will accelerate a change here, two things that have been a huge problem to me, personally.
1. Confront any sense of entitlement to an insulting, belittling, attacking sarcasm when approaching the men with these issues.
2. Don't secretly enjoy any of that sarcasm from anyone else.
You haven't done this as much as others here (I don't want to set up a pride-generating comparison contest here; I want to make sure you know I have seen your efforts). My intent is to tell you that any time you have asked a question that is certain to be inflammatory (at least in 99% of public circles that I've ever seen), every time you made sure that boldness was there without sarcasm, hostility, insult, you built my confidence that some profit would come from talking with you about it.
Every time you disagreed with me without dismissing me and simply replacing what I had to say with another opinion without listening to me, you built that same confidence. What I think I mean is please discuss with me what I meant about something, give it a chance to become clear and confirmed before saying "well I see it differently" then proceeding with what you think. It would allow both of us to talk and maintain our points of view--without the effect of knocking the other's thoughts off the table, and just replacing them, simply because "we're different"......
You still seem to have a belief that anchoring in God's truth needs to be underneath all of any successful effort. That is one thing to never let go of, back away from, or shut up about. And it's becoming more and more rare! That's one thing I always appreciated about you, one reason I approached you, in particular, about this. There: I tried my best. I'll wait for what you have to say in return.....
"I think that when you speak one on one with somebody, only presenting your thoughts, you have so much powerful stuff to share. And I miss it."
When I wrote that, I wasn't using an impersonal "you". I'm saying I think you are strong in this way.
I wish I could have come across as less complaining and more objective when I wrote that stuff about the men's forum thread, etc....I couldn't find the words......If that digs at you, makes you feel beat on, I hope you'll believe me when I tell you that I meant for the frustration/anger expressed there to be at the situation, not you. I don't know how well I did with that...
Hot Ice: BHL--I don't see this difference you're talking about. If you read it differently and that's all there is to it, that would hint at a desire to be in one accord. If you read it differently and therefore dismiss what I saw, won't give it any thought/consideration, then it's a dead subject. Since you've not committed to either one, I'll regard it as dead. ( I thought it was anyway, before the subject was picked right back up).
As I said, I'll re-read it more carefully to see if I can see what you, DiC & Spare are seeing. I did say that...I did! I feel as though I am being completely dismissed by you & others & that's fine! But don't talk to me unless you aren't dismissing me because you miss an awful lot. Or you know what? You have every right to do whatever, but don't expect me to take anyone serious that dismisses me.
It wasn't dead as far as I was concerned. I have a life outside of this forum as you & others do. I was gone camping all 4th of July weekend Thursday through Sunday. Sunday we had a church celebration/pot luck. So yesterday I responded. And again if I wasn't dismissed others would have seen I posted I was going camping & wanted to discuss this when I returned.
Did you ever wonder HI why I bother? Is it because I don't like you guys & like to irritate you? Is that how you see it? Or maybe it's because my heart goes out to you & how tortured some of you sound here. There is a way to thrive despite what you are going through! And just yesterday I posted something that a friend sent me via e-mail about how diffculty in our lives is a way to bring glory to God's name!!
I should give up. Yesterday I decided to. It's hard to move on when the only threads seeing action are those that are discussing how awful men have it. But it's my choice, I am responsible for my choice to pick this back up. Blah.
Grrrr...I had a whole response & lost it.
I have to get to work. I'll respond as soon as I can.
Hot Ice: "I think that when you speak one on one with somebody, only presenting your thoughts, you have so much powerful stuff to share. And I miss it." When I wrote that, I wasn't using an impersonal "you". I'm saying I think you are strong in this way. I wish I could have come across as less complaining and more objective when I wrote that stuff about the men's forum thread, etc....I couldn't find the words......If that digs at you, makes you feel beat on, I hope you'll believe me when I tell you that I meant for the frustration/anger expressed there to be at the situation, not you. I don't know how well I did with that...
I had a response to your later post (that I hadn't read yet in the previous post) and lost it. A whole long thing. Grrrr!
Anyway, I will respond. Please just be patient with me. I don't want to respond while at work, so it'll be after work for sure. There is a good reason for that, your post makes me feel sad & I don't want to try to respond at work.
I think God's giving me some time to really think it over.
BcauseHeLives: Hot Ice: BHL--I don't see this difference you're talking about. If you read it differently and that's all there is to it, that would hint at a desire to be in one accord. If you read it differently and therefore dismiss what I saw, won't give it any thought/consideration, then it's a dead subject. Since you've not committed to either one, I'll regard it as dead. ( I thought it was anyway, before the subject was picked right back up). As I said, I'll re-read it more carefully to see if I can see what you, DiC & Spare are seeing. I did say that...I did! I feel as though I am being completely dismissed by you & others & that's fine! But don't talk to me unless you aren't dismissing me because you miss an awful lot. Or you know what? You have every right to do whatever, but don't expect me to take anyone serious that dismisses me. It wasn't dead as far as I was concerned. I have a life outside of this forum as you & others do. I was gone camping all 4th of July weekend Thursday through Sunday. Sunday we had a church celebration/pot luck. So yesterday I responded. And again if I wasn't dismissed others would have seen I posted I was going camping & wanted to discuss this when I returned. Did you ever wonder HI why I bother? Is it because I don't like you guys & like to irritate you? Is that how you see it? Or maybe it's because my heart goes out to you & how tortured some of you sound here. There is a way to thrive despite what you are going through! And just yesterday I posted something that a friend sent me via e-mail about how diffculty in our lives is a way to bring glory to God's name!! I should give up. Yesterday I decided to. It's hard to move on when the only threads seeing action are those that are discussing how awful men have it. But it's my choice, I am responsible for my choice to pick this back up. Blah.
Hot Ice: BcauseHeLives: Hot Ice: BHL--I don't see this difference you're talking about. If you read it differently and that's all there is to it, that would hint at a desire to be in one accord. If you read it differently and therefore dismiss what I saw, won't give it any thought/consideration, then it's a dead subject. Since you've not committed to either one, I'll regard it as dead. ( I thought it was anyway, before the subject was picked right back up). As I said, I'll re-read it more carefully to see if I can see what you, DiC & Spare are seeing. I did say that...I did! I feel as though I am being completely dismissed by you & others & that's fine! But don't talk to me unless you aren't dismissing me because you miss an awful lot. Or you know what? You have every right to do whatever, but don't expect me to take anyone serious that dismisses me. It wasn't dead as far as I was concerned. I have a life outside of this forum as you & others do. I was gone camping all 4th of July weekend Thursday through Sunday. Sunday we had a church celebration/pot luck. So yesterday I responded. And again if I wasn't dismissed others would have seen I posted I was going camping & wanted to discuss this when I returned. Did you ever wonder HI why I bother? Is it because I don't like you guys & like to irritate you? Is that how you see it? Or maybe it's because my heart goes out to you & how tortured some of you sound here. There is a way to thrive despite what you are going through! And just yesterday I posted something that a friend sent me via e-mail about how diffculty in our lives is a way to bring glory to God's name!! I should give up. Yesterday I decided to. It's hard to move on when the only threads seeing action are those that are discussing how awful men have it. But it's my choice, I am responsible for my choice to pick this back up. Blah. Alright then--you've given up.
Me TOOOO
Lerg!
BcauseHeLives: Grrrr...I had a whole response & lost it. I have to get to work. I'll respond as soon as I can.
Until I hear from you that you are willing to stop that, then this is where I stand.
Yep, perty much. ;0)
Actually if you had read on you'd see I was going to come back & address what you had to say. But after prayerful consideration & checking with other believers I have decided it's not worth it & really not necessary.
One of my dear friends pointed out to me what others have said before. That everyone's perceptions are filtered through their own experiences. Yours, mine...everyone's. So what you see as a problem or as an issue others may not. For example I know for a fact that the few brothers I have consulted on this tired old topic that there are those men out there who don't have a problem with the message...step it up. No one has arrived & each & everyone of us needs to step it up. Hearing that does not push these brothers' hot button.
For others it does push a hot button. That doesn't make those men wrong & the men who don't wrong...it just means you both are different, have different experiences & see things differently. It is also okay for not everyone to agree with one another. It doesn't mean someone is dismissing you or even disrespecting you.
As I thought about this over lunch...I realized that for some reason you have targeted me in an unhealthy manner. You seem to have this need to put me in my place & tell me how I should & should not respond to you & others here at FL.
I will fully admit that I haven't conducted myself in a Christ-like manner in all areas or at all times. I also will let you know that I will more than likely stumble in that area in the future as well. We all do. I'm not saying that to shift blame or to lesson my responsibility for stumbling, I take full resonsibility for my actions. Regardless of how others conduct themselves I am still held to the Godly standard everyone else is. It's to let you know that it's human nature and that I would hope that you could extend grace & mercy rather than judgement. I extend that to you fully. I have no ill feelings towards you.
You can continue to find reasons to find fault in me & my responses here...I'm okay with that. If need be I'll learn to scroll past your posts so as not to be tempted to draw myself into a disagreement that can turn into an unholy argument. I won't tell you what to post here, how to post...who to post to & how to post to them. I will not hold you to one standard while holding myself & others to a different one.
As to giving up...the bottom line is this discussion will never be fruitful because no one can let go of pride & realize that perception in this is everything. It's apparently not okay to disagree with some. I shouldn't have to tell you this or anyone this, but it's okay to disagree with me. It's also okay to disregard me, I shouldn't let that get to me...and will try not to in the future...as some of you already know from my reactions subconsciensly or consciensly that is a hot button for me.
IOW, it's okay to post to me...you can do what you want. How or if I respond is up to me & fully my responsibility.
So yes I'm walking away from this discussion & others like it. I'm not really giving up, I'm just lifting it up. ;0) God's not getting the glory in any of these discussions...not from me anyway. Maybe you think He is from your responses. If so you should continue to do what you feel led to.
I'm not going to continue to do the fear dance w/you or any of the men or women at this site. That's what we're all doing...pushing one another buttons in retaliation for having had our buttson pushed. See the Fear Dance thread I started as a reference & also the "I needed to read this..." thread. If you desire. :)
Just so we're crystal clear HI, we do not have a relationship you and I. I don't know you. You are not my husband, I don't even know if you are a man or a woman. You can be whomever you want to be on an internet forum...as can I. And the same goes from you to me...you don't know me...I am not your wife, etc. So it's truly okay & not at all outside of God's will to walk away & know that He is God & knows each of our hearts. I'm at peace with that...I hope you can be too.
I wish you the best.
There are lots of things that are wrong, yet when you ask some folks they will say they have no issue with it. It is so bad, as an example, there are even victims of abuse who would answer that they dont mind.
There are also especially in this country so many people who simply don't think. I dont mean they think incorrectly, or they think different than me, they honestly don't even think. Relationally, as is frequently said, men can tend to be NOT thinkers. We just dont sit and ponder relatal things so much...I guess we are volunteers to be blissfully unaware even when, if you asked our wives they'd say things are falling apart.
For those reasons, anytime someone says they asked so and so if they have an issue with men being asked to step up, I don't think it reflects their well considered opinion when they say no. Likely they have not even ever considered the question before....ever....so of course when asked, they so, "nope, not botherin me"...which after all is a pretty common man answer to ANY question put to us by our spouses or mothers or sisters or female friends.
If, however, one of two things happen, I dare say I much bigger number will say heck yea it bugs me. One...if they find themselves on the receiving end of a divorce or close to someone who is...or Two, if they for some reason really read/listen to someone talk about it and check the facts. Sure not everyone will be bothered, but it is not a matter of perception, when those saying it doesnt bother them probably havent even considered if it does or doesnt bother them ever before...IOW they have never even perceived it AT ALL, let alone wondered HOW they perceive it.
Which makes it even all the worse. Because regardless the number, the potential men who could awaken to this would be enough to finally give it critical mass, and join together in a Godly way, and congeal an effective non combative message that is not all or nothing and is non threatening.
Despite some men saying it doesnt bother them, again, they are by saying that essentially saying "nope really I never get bugged about that nor even dwell on it"....whereas the ladies seem to be saying they HAVE considered it carefully and that we whiners are perceiving something that may or may not be there and we need to bugger off.
No further comments your honor.
Hot Ice: BcauseHeLives: Grrrr...I had a whole response & lost it. I have to get to work. I'll respond as soon as I can. BHL, I read your response in the other thread. "Ok, ok. They're all out to get you. Men are victims." What I hear is that you're not willing to stop the sarcasm and the insults. That communicating with you requires me to deal with that on a continual basis. I'm not willing to do that. Until I hear from you that you are willing to stop that, then this is where I stand.
JaneFW: Hot Ice: BcauseHeLives: Grrrr...I had a whole response & lost it. I have to get to work. I'll respond as soon as I can. BHL, I read your response in the other thread. "Ok, ok. They're all out to get you. Men are victims." What I hear is that you're not willing to stop the sarcasm and the insults. That communicating with you requires me to deal with that on a continual basis. I'm not willing to do that. Until I hear from you that you are willing to stop that, then this is where I stand. While you have every right to respond to or not respond to anyone you want to, you have no right to tell BHL - or anyone else - that they need to stop doing x - which you perceive them to be doing - before you will do y. I mean, really. I think you confuse the women around here with your wife sometimes. So stop communicating with people who you don't agree with. Period.That's why I've dropped the rope.
My comment above is to the ether.
I dont respond
Zork!
Okay.
Thx Jane.
