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pooh girl: BcauseHeLives: Maybe it's your refusal to speak only to the sins of these men in power? I don't know, I can't speak for others. It's just a possibility. I'd say it is since the article is addressing the actions of men and women in leadership, yet some resfuse to address the actual topic.
BcauseHeLives: Maybe it's your refusal to speak only to the sins of these men in power? I don't know, I can't speak for others. It's just a possibility.
Maybe it's your refusal to speak only to the sins of these men in power? I don't know, I can't speak for others. It's just a possibility.
Speaking of abuse of power is when the person I just dealt with this morning kept reminding me of his level of importance including yearly income. My response in the most polite way was that the same law applies to you regardless of your title.
Using your title, level of degree of education or financial status to intimidate others is my opinion abuse of power of sorts. Those things do happen among men and women in power unfortunately.
chaz345: pooh girl: BcauseHeLives: Maybe it's your refusal to speak only to the sins of these men in power? I don't know, I can't speak for others. It's just a possibility. I'd say it is since the article is addressing the actions of men and women in leadership, yet some resfuse to address the actual topic.Knowing the tendencies of the original poster, I think you are WAY off in what the actual topic is. The real point is that the article, and it's one sided nature, is a good illustration of what DiC and others have been saying all along that it's nearly always a man's fault. The article is essentially suggesting that since women in power sin less, they are better qualified than men to lead. Tell me you honestly don't have a problem with that idea.
Is it true?
Do men in leadership committ adultry more than women?
If it is, all the more reason why these guys should be held 100% accountable for their actions. To me it's their failure to hold to moral standards that causes people to question men's ability to lead.
Of course women in power sin as much as the men. Of course they are no more qualified to lead.
But I would think your frustration would be in large part directed at those men who keep feeding into the mad-bad picture by sinning & then pointing to the women for the cause of it instead of taking responsibility w/out pointing fingers anywhere but at themselves.
BcauseHeLives: chaz345: pooh girl: BcauseHeLives: Maybe it's your refusal to speak only to the sins of these men in power? I don't know, I can't speak for others. It's just a possibility. I'd say it is since the article is addressing the actions of men and women in leadership, yet some resfuse to address the actual topic.Knowing the tendencies of the original poster, I think you are WAY off in what the actual topic is. The real point is that the article, and it's one sided nature, is a good illustration of what DiC and others have been saying all along that it's nearly always a man's fault. The article is essentially suggesting that since women in power sin less, they are better qualified than men to lead. Tell me you honestly don't have a problem with that idea. Is it true? Do men in leadership committ adultry more than women? If it is, all the more reason why these guys should be held 100% accountable for their actions. To me it's their failure to hold to moral standards that causes people to question men's ability to lead. Of course women in power sin as much as the men. Of course they are no more qualified to lead. But I would think your frustration would be in large part directed at those men who keep feeding into the mad-bad picture by sinning & then pointing to the women for the cause of it instead of taking responsibility w/out pointing fingers anywhere but at themselves.
pooh girl: chaz345: pooh girl: BcauseHeLives: Maybe it's your refusal to speak only to the sins of these men in power? I don't know, I can't speak for others. It's just a possibility. I'd say it is since the article is addressing the actions of men and women in leadership, yet some resfuse to address the actual topic.Knowing the tendencies of the original poster, I think you are WAY off in what the actual topic is. The real point is that the article, and it's one sided nature, is a good illustration of what DiC and others have been saying all along that it's nearly always a man's fault. The article is essentially suggesting that since women in power sin less, they are better qualified than men to lead. Tell me you honestly don't have a problem with that idea. chaz, Normally I would say that the article was wrong with sinning less, but I don't know the more I listen to some of the men here I'm starting to doubt it. I don't know.
chaz345: pooh girl: chaz345: pooh girl: BcauseHeLives: Maybe it's your refusal to speak only to the sins of these men in power? I don't know, I can't speak for others. It's just a possibility. I'd say it is since the article is addressing the actions of men and women in leadership, yet some resfuse to address the actual topic.Knowing the tendencies of the original poster, I think you are WAY off in what the actual topic is. The real point is that the article, and it's one sided nature, is a good illustration of what DiC and others have been saying all along that it's nearly always a man's fault. The article is essentially suggesting that since women in power sin less, they are better qualified than men to lead. Tell me you honestly don't have a problem with that idea. chaz, Normally I would say that the article was wrong with sinning less, but I don't know the more I listen to some of the men here I'm starting to doubt it. I don't know. What about some of the men here has caused you to question wether or not either gender sins more or less than the other?
BcauseHeLives: spare_parts:How does man not give in to temptation?1. Avoid temptation. We are told to flee from it.2. Surround ourselves with folks who will hold us accountable.3. When faced with temptation, go to God first. Yep, agreed! Good stuff. (And yes this goes for women too, but since this article is addressing the sexual sins of men in power, I'm just going to stick w/that.) spare_parts:But this is not a man issue. As you agreed, it's a character issue, and folks of faulty character are equally represented by both genders. Of course...as you know I didn't say it was a *man* issue. I completely get that it's a human issue...not a gender specific issue. However, this article is in part, discussing men in power & their propensity to adultry. That's what I'm addressing w/these questions.
spare_parts:How does man not give in to temptation?1. Avoid temptation. We are told to flee from it.2. Surround ourselves with folks who will hold us accountable.3. When faced with temptation, go to God first.
Yep, agreed! Good stuff. (And yes this goes for women too, but since this article is addressing the sexual sins of men in power, I'm just going to stick w/that.)
spare_parts:But this is not a man issue. As you agreed, it's a character issue, and folks of faulty character are equally represented by both genders.
Of course...as you know I didn't say it was a *man* issue. I completely get that it's a human issue...not a gender specific issue. However, this article is in part, discussing men in power & their propensity to adultry. That's what I'm addressing w/these questions.
But the problem I have with that is he was not alone when he was sinning. As I've said before, I see no difference between looking at ONLY his actions and bringing the woman caught in adultery before the pharisees. Leaving out the fact that the pharisees were also sinners, they only held ONE party accountable by bringing her before Jesus.
To discuss only his actions is essentially the same thing.
spare_parts: spare_parts:Contrary to how some folks have tried to twist what I've said, I'm not just blaming the woman. I've said that both the man and a woman in an affair have both sinned. They've both fallen short and are both responsible for the decisions they've made. I haven't twisted what you've said. I'm just trying to focus on one thing at a time. I agree...both have fallen short. I'm speaking about the men in power that give into temptation, not about the women that they cheat with. spare_parts:How anyone could get out of that I was blaming women for the man's choice is beyond me. Maybe it's your refusal to speak only to the sins of these men in power?
spare_parts:Contrary to how some folks have tried to twist what I've said, I'm not just blaming the woman. I've said that both the man and a woman in an affair have both sinned. They've both fallen short and are both responsible for the decisions they've made.
I haven't twisted what you've said. I'm just trying to focus on one thing at a time. I agree...both have fallen short. I'm speaking about the men in power that give into temptation, not about the women that they cheat with.
spare_parts:How anyone could get out of that I was blaming women for the man's choice is beyond me.
Maybe it's your refusal to speak only to the sins of these men in power?
Well, I can't say that I've heard any women start topics holding this woman accountable for her actions. I've seen women start or comment on the man's actions. But as of yet, no topics addressing her contributions.
spare_parts: I don't know, I can't speak for others. It's just a possibility. Like I said one is different from the other, God's going to deal with each of them seperately. One did not force the other to sin.
I don't know, I can't speak for others. It's just a possibility. Like I said one is different from the other, God's going to deal with each of them seperately. One did not force the other to sin.
True, and that goes both ways. He will deal with the separately, but differently will not depend on the nature of their sin, nor their gender, but the nature of their relationship with Him.
spare_parts: I'm discussing the men in power to give into temptation in sexual sin.
I'm discussing the men in power to give into temptation in sexual sin.
Why limit it to men? Women use sex to in relation to power. There are some (not all) who sleep their way to the top. So I think both use sex, but for different reasons.
So my legitimate critique of this woman's article is the one-sided nature of it. To put it crassly, women sleep up, men sleep down. But both men and women sleep and cheat.
spare_parts: For example, nothing irritates me more than when I'm holding one of my children accountable for their disobedience than when they start the finger pointing. So & so did this so I did that. She should get into trouble too! Why are you only talking to me, I'm not the only one who did wrong!
For example, nothing irritates me more than when I'm holding one of my children accountable for their disobedience than when they start the finger pointing. So & so did this so I did that. She should get into trouble too! Why are you only talking to me, I'm not the only one who did wrong!
Let it's a legitimate complaint. If you let one child get away with their sin and don't talk about it, while your other child pays the consequences you are going to have to hear legitimate complaints from those who are asked to pay the costs while the other party goes free.
It may irritate you. Imagine how it irritates those pay the price, even if they didn't sleep around, etc. Guilty simply because they are male.
spare_parts: To me that's blame shifting. Pointing the finger to someone else to make themselves look not so bad in their actions...or even to justify their actions.
To me that's blame shifting. Pointing the finger to someone else to make themselves look not so bad in their actions...or even to justify their actions.
Yes, but which way. If we only talk about his sin, I agree it's a blame shift. All the blame for her actions are foisted upon him. So I'm with you. I'm against the blameshift. Talking only about him without even mentioning that she was just as guilty is a blame shift away from the woman.
spare_parts: I'm really not stupid. I know that it takes two (or more) to tango. I'm intellegent enough to realize that I also need to have a talk or maybe even punish another child in the mix. What I want from that child at that moment is accountability. Yes I was wrong, I'm sorry. No finger pointing, no worrying about if the other one will get addressed...just taking responsibility for their actions & knowing they had other righteous options & to work at taking those options the next time.
I'm really not stupid. I know that it takes two (or more) to tango. I'm intellegent enough to realize that I also need to have a talk or maybe even punish another child in the mix. What I want from that child at that moment is accountability. Yes I was wrong, I'm sorry. No finger pointing, no worrying about if the other one will get addressed...just taking responsibility for their actions & knowing they had other righteous options & to work at taking those options the next time.
The thing is, I didn't see the author even calling for her accountability. So I'm asking the question, where is the call for her accountability? I don't see where as much ink is being devoted to her actions. No calls for her to resign, to give up her kids or anything like that.
There are calls for him to resign, that he's not fit to govern. Are there calls for her to quit her job as she cannot be trusted in her job?
Why didn't the author question that aspect of it? It seems one-sided without such a question.
spare_parts: I'm going to address the other child, but that is separate from the one I am addressing at the moment.
I'm going to address the other child, but that is separate from the one I am addressing at the moment.
The problem is, I've never seen the other "child" addressed. I don't see threads started on message boards discussing the woman's role. The only person I see anyone calling to account is him.
So while one can argue they should be dealt with separately, I can agree with that.
That doesn't negate the fact that I've yet to see her called to account, either here, or on any other message board, news outlet, etc.
So if folks don't like me asking the question, then ask it before I do. As long as I see such one-sided posts, as long as I see the "pharisees" holding only one party accountable without the same level of effort focused on the other party, I'll keep pointing out the inconsistency in holding only one accountable, only talking about one.
spare_parts: I do understand that polititians are under tremendous pressure. They live in fishbowls. Some become power hungry & arrogant. Some simply fall into temptation.
I do understand that polititians are under tremendous pressure. They live in fishbowls. Some become power hungry & arrogant. Some simply fall into temptation.
So?
spare_parts: The answer to the question I was looking for in all of this is that male politicians are human. They are not perfect. They will fall. While they need to be held firmly accountable for their actions, they also need to be extended grace & mercy. Because we all are afflicted w/the same thing...that is our flesh, our sinful natures.
The answer to the question I was looking for in all of this is that male politicians are human. They are not perfect. They will fall. While they need to be held firmly accountable for their actions, they also need to be extended grace & mercy. Because we all are afflicted w/the same thing...that is our flesh, our sinful natures.
And the same is true for their affair partners.
I'm simply asking to either give both parties the same amount of attention. If it's wrong for him, it's wrong for her. If she's not newsworthy, then he shouldn't be either. If his actions are at the top of the news cycle, then put hers right there with his.
chaz345: BcauseHeLives: chaz345: pooh girl: BcauseHeLives: Maybe it's your refusal to speak only to the sins of these men in power? I don't know, I can't speak for others. It's just a possibility. I'd say it is since the article is addressing the actions of men and women in leadership, yet some resfuse to address the actual topic.Knowing the tendencies of the original poster, I think you are WAY off in what the actual topic is. The real point is that the article, and it's one sided nature, is a good illustration of what DiC and others have been saying all along that it's nearly always a man's fault. The article is essentially suggesting that since women in power sin less, they are better qualified than men to lead. Tell me you honestly don't have a problem with that idea. Is it true? Do men in leadership committ adultry more than women? If it is, all the more reason why these guys should be held 100% accountable for their actions. To me it's their failure to hold to moral standards that causes people to question men's ability to lead. Of course women in power sin as much as the men. Of course they are no more qualified to lead. But I would think your frustration would be in large part directed at those men who keep feeding into the mad-bad picture by sinning & then pointing to the women for the cause of it instead of taking responsibility w/out pointing fingers anywhere but at themselves. Who says I'm not frustrated at men who do wrong and then refuse to accept responsibility? It's just that that ain't the whole problem. Not by a long shot. People have a very strong tendency to live up to and DOWN to the expectations that other people and society place on them. So, without even starting to come close to saying that it's not at all the man's fault I will say that the negative attitudes about men play a PART in the negative truths about men.
Okay, let me first clarify. When I said "you" I meant that generically. I meant it to anyone who wants to make this about the women who they cheated with instead of the fact that they did sin & commit adultry.
You say that negative attitudes about men plays a part in the negative truths about men, how much of a part? Have you assigned it a percentage value?
You see I look at those pastors, etc that call on men to be men of Christ-like integrity as being the honest to goodness warriors in this battle. Because those men realize that at the end of the day the responsibility for their integrity or lack thereof is within each man's heart & will.
They also realize that the integrity of men is crucial to a biblical society. That while women aren't less sinners or better than the men they have no control over the actions of men either. They aren't going to be the ones to lead them out of the pit they are in. That will take men reaching out to God with a humble, repentive heart.
Also, don't you think that if men were reading God's word & studying it as they are called to by God that they would know the Truth from the fiction spoken about them?
At the end of the day each individual is responsible for his/her own sin & needs to bring it before the cross to repent fully & grow.
BcauseHeLives:You see I look at those pastors, etc that call on men to be men of Christ-like integrity as being the honest to goodness warriors in this battle. Because those men realize that at the end of the day the responsibility for their integrity or lack thereof is within each man's heart & will.
But if they only call MEN to that standard and don't devote the same effort in calling women to that standard they are missing half the battle. Not to mention the tacit message that is delivered when one doesn't call women to that same standard.
If only men are called to that standard, then one is saying by NOT calling women to that standard that they've already arrived, or they are not as sinful, or whatever message folks will perceive by noticing that only men receive such a call, such admonishment from the pastor.
No one is saying there is anything wrong with pastors calling men to such a standard. However, one has to wonder why the same call doesn't come from the pulpit to women?
I've yet to hear a sermon asking women why they file for more divorces than men, when most divorces filed by both men and women don't have biblical grounds.
BcauseHeLives: They also realize that the integrity of men is crucial to a biblical society. That while women aren't less sinners or better than the men they have no control over the actions of men either. They aren't going to be the ones to lead them out of the pit they are in. That will take men reaching out to God with a humble, repentive heart.
Why just men. Doesn't it also take women reaching out to God? Why do you single out men here? You may not mean to, but by saying it will take men... you are leaving out women in your statement. By focusing only on men in the pit, you leave out women who are in their very own pit.
Do you want to leave women in the pit? By ignoring they are right there with them, you are. Or at the very least, one is unable to see you calling for them to change their behavior and call out to God to deliver them from the pit.
It comes across as if only men are in the pit, the way you write this.
BcauseHeLives: Also, don't you think that if men were reading God's word & studying it as they are called to by God that they would know the Truth from the fiction spoken about them? At the end of the day each individual is responsible for his/her own sin & needs to bring it before the cross to repent fully & grow.
pooh girl: chaz345: pooh girl: chaz345: pooh girl: BcauseHeLives: Maybe it's your refusal to speak only to the sins of these men in power? I don't know, I can't speak for others. It's just a possibility. I'd say it is since the article is addressing the actions of men and women in leadership, yet some resfuse to address the actual topic.Knowing the tendencies of the original poster, I think you are WAY off in what the actual topic is. The real point is that the article, and it's one sided nature, is a good illustration of what DiC and others have been saying all along that it's nearly always a man's fault. The article is essentially suggesting that since women in power sin less, they are better qualified than men to lead. Tell me you honestly don't have a problem with that idea. chaz, Normally I would say that the article was wrong with sinning less, but I don't know the more I listen to some of the men here I'm starting to doubt it. I don't know. What about some of the men here has caused you to question wether or not either gender sins more or less than the other? The failure to address the actual habits and actions of men and women in leadership as addressed in the article. The inability to respond to what and who the article is actually talking about instead shifting the conversation to focusing on the other women, the guilt, the sinfulness of other women. The inability to focus on women leaders and male leaders as stated. That leads me to think men don't want to address the any issues with male leadership and recognize any wrong doings, but would much rather shift fault to all women in any way they can.
QUOTE:No, the best place to address this is with those who write incomplete or misleading articles. The problem is not men or women. The problem is the one-sided coverage. END QUOTE
Because if you're the one serving the public in some way..If YOU are the one who has been put in a priveledged position ..YOU are the one to answer to the people who trusted you to lead.
If a woman in a postion of power or authority abuses that power or uses that power innapropriately she gets covered.
This particular topic was why a man in power will be more likely than a woman of equal authority to abuse that priveledge of power to SECIFICALLY gain sexual favors.
Why can this PARTICULAR phenemenon not be discussed without talking about women sleeping their way to the top or it takes two to tango..That is a completely different phenomenon.
No one said some women dont you use sex to gain power.What does that have to do with why a man is more likely to THROW that position of power away over sex.Why is a man more willing to risk it all than a woman.
Love
Dallas
BcauseHeLives:Okay, let me first clarify. When I said "you" I meant that generically. I meant it to anyone who wants to make this about the women who they cheated with instead of the fact that they did sin & commit adultry.
And who in this conversation is doing that? I see some wanting the women's actions to not be ignored as is usually the case but I don't see anyone trying to excuse the actions of the men.
BcauseHeLives:You say that negative attitudes about men plays a part in the negative truths about men, how much of a part? Have you assigned it a percentage value?
No I haven't. But like I've said, the single minded focus on men's failures and the continual messages of "come on, do better" as the only way of addressing the problems isn't working. I've said many times I have no problem in discussing and addressing men's failures. My problem is in trying to say that that's the entire problem. I know you haven't said that it is, but when you call any attempt to even consider the contributions of others into the whole picture as blame shifting, I have to wonder.
And on an individual basis, I agree completely. But the discussion changes when we start talking about group behavior. Looking at a favorite example from the other side, when we see women file divorce more often than men, we always hear how important it is to address the why's, and I agree completely. But to say that the problems with men need only be addressed by pointing out the individual's own responsibility and telling them to step up is exactly the same thing as looking at the facts of who files more and saying that that means that women are the cause more.
BcauseHeLives:At the end of the day each individual is responsible for his/her own sin & needs to bring it before the cross to repent fully & grow.
chaz345: pooh girl: chaz345: pooh girl: chaz345: pooh girl: BcauseHeLives: Maybe it's your refusal to speak only to the sins of these men in power? I don't know, I can't speak for others. It's just a possibility. I'd say it is since the article is addressing the actions of men and women in leadership, yet some resfuse to address the actual topic.Knowing the tendencies of the original poster, I think you are WAY off in what the actual topic is. The real point is that the article, and it's one sided nature, is a good illustration of what DiC and others have been saying all along that it's nearly always a man's fault. The article is essentially suggesting that since women in power sin less, they are better qualified than men to lead. Tell me you honestly don't have a problem with that idea. chaz, Normally I would say that the article was wrong with sinning less, but I don't know the more I listen to some of the men here I'm starting to doubt it. I don't know. What about some of the men here has caused you to question wether or not either gender sins more or less than the other? The failure to address the actual habits and actions of men and women in leadership as addressed in the article. The inability to respond to what and who the article is actually talking about instead shifting the conversation to focusing on the other women, the guilt, the sinfulness of other women. The inability to focus on women leaders and male leaders as stated. That leads me to think men don't want to address the any issues with male leadership and recognize any wrong doings, but would much rather shift fault to all women in any way they can. ]I'm sorry but I can't even begin to follow your thought process on that one. The article is pure garbage, completely unworthy of discussion based on what's in it. That it draws the conclusion that it does calls into question everything it has to say. But again, the article itself and any shreds of useful information it contains isn't even the point. The point is that the fact that such an article exists, and that we got as far as we did before anyone even questioned the assertion that men in power sin more than women in power, is pretty good evidence of the existance of larger problem that Spare, DiC and myself have been trying to get people to see.
So if it wasnt posted for discussion just to point out articles like this exist ..garbage articles some obscure writer..what in the world are we talking about?
TBH..I've always wondered myself why a man is willing to take his whole life..his carreer ..his marriage...his postion of authority and taint his name forever for a little hanky panky.
If all we are going to do is post articles that point out a mans tendency to more likely than a woman do something negative just to prove that views like that exists we can do the same thing for women.But the fact of the matter this woman isnt making this up.
So I guess that ends the discussion..I guess we can all agree articles like this exist.
