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((Jane)) just so heartsick over this for you... :(
I don't have any words of wisdom, help or advice, but I am just very very sorry...
I am sure the situation is incredibly saddening and angering at the same time, Jane.
I won't tell you what I think you should do, unless you ask.
But I can tell you what I think about what you've said.
I think the whole "that's just who he is" is, fundamentally, enabling.
I can completely understand your frustration and the feelings of "why bother". I can also completely understand the thoughts of "two can play at that game". The former is understandable. The latter is, as you point out, bad for YOU, and dangerous.
But the fact that he continues in sin is not justification or a reason to enable that sin or to not call him to task for his actions.
Deciding that his sinful behavior just is who he is necessarily assumes that he is somehow beyond the reach of God's Grace. And that is a very different situation than YOU being worn out from trying to help him change. It might be true that YOU are completely spent - emotionally and spiritually exhausted. That most likely IS true, and I don't think anyone can think ill of you for it. But that is different than your husband being beyond renewal.
In other words - deciding that's just who he is gives up on him completely, including giving up on God's power to change him.
Disengaging yourself in that way - no matter how attractive and 'logical' that may feel right now - will accomplish only one thing - it will harm your marriage. It will kill any sense of closeness or intimacy you currently feel... and if you feel nothing right now, it ensures you never will. Disengaging will leave your mind free to wander, and wonder. And as much as you may be telling yourself you just aren't going to think about it, you WILL think about it. You will relive the frustration and pain every time you think about it, and your anger and pain and distrust will grow.
Whereas, if you instead give up the notion that YOU can change him, and stop taking personally the things he does, and instead view him as he is - a sinful man under the bondage of sin, then you can retain.. or develop... some compassion. YOU KNOW what it is like to be in bondage. Thank God, you have broken and moved beyond that particular bondage. But if you step back a second and think about it, you connecting your emotional state and to any extent your self image or self-worth to your husband's actions is itself bondage. It works to destroy marriage. And even if it is NOT the case that in your case you are under that sort of bondage, you DO know what it is like to be in the midst of bondage, and how blind you can be to its affects, and effects, and how easy it is to justify and rationalize continued sinful behavior.
He *is* where you've been. He's still in that pit. And there is only one hand he can grab to get out of the pit. And it isn't yours. And it is perfectly all right that you are absolutely weary from holding your hand out for him for so long. It is OK to rest and REALLY leave it to God.
JaneFW:So, I don't know what anyone can do to "help" me here, but I just wanted to vent a little, I guess. I'm realizing that this is just who I am married to, and that I'm going to have to live with it, regardless of whether I like it or not (I don't). I did a quick check on Eblaster this morning. I just look at instant messages, and only im's with women, so I figure that leaves him privacy for all of his other interactions, which I really don't care about any more. I found a conversation with this one woman, Tammy, who he had im'd with before, and had pm's with. He was one of those he asked if she would meet him when he went to Abilene - but she was out of town. Lie #1 - he told me that he wasn't interacting with any old girlfriends. In this im he tells her that he was always proud to take her to the movies because of how good she looked. He told he in an im that he "tried to win her back" after they broke up, so I know that this is an old g/f, and he was already talking to her when we talked about this and he told the lie.Lie #2 - he told me that if he did meet any of these women for lunch in Abilene, he wouldn't meet any women alone, they would bring their husbands. In the im he says that he tried to hook up with another girl they knew, another Tammy, and he says to this Tammy that he "just wanted to have lunch with a girl called Tammy." I know he is saying this part as a joke, but it's obvious to me from this and from the im's that he did not intend their husbands to be present as he never once mentions husbands, and neither do they.I'm upset that he tells her that she looks "d@mn fine" in her photos, which leads to the comment about him being proud to take her to the movies. Then he says that he is "too honest" - which is enough to make a cat laugh. He's so honest that he's flirting with women who are married, while he is married. Very honest. Yes.It was (to me) a sickening exchange. He's still plugging at getting together some time. I can only assume that I won't be present, because neither of them mention their spouses.I realized reading this this morning that he is not going to change, and that it doesn't matter whether I told him to stay off FB, because he will always find another outlet for that restless, disappointed part of him that craves flirtation/excitement/thrill of the unknown (or 'not known for a long while'!) That's who/what he is. I have figured out over the past year or so, probably longer, that he is incredibly false in many respects, and that he wears so many faces that I'm amazed he can keep up with which one he shows to which person. So, today he was the caring husband, taking me to the dentist (I might have had to get an extraction but didn't), but yesterday he was the free and loose 15yo (or whatever) again, who could flirt with girls, and on Sunday he will be the good Christian man. I'm revolted at times. It seems to me that I need to shrug my shoulders and just keep truckin' on, while trying to steer him away from doing something *too* stupid, and just try not to think about him whispering in another woman's ear (electronically) while I sit on the sidelines. I'm tired of being sidelined in favor of women in porn, or women from the past, but there doesn't seem to be an option. It's very saddening. I had some thoughts of "two can play that game" because y'know I could do that too .. but why would I dirty my soul with flirtations? What it comes down to is that I want him, but he doesn't want me. So, oh well.
Im sorry Jane ((HUGS)).
To me it sounds more like not that he doesnt want you..but he doesnt "want anyone".He wants the chase.He wants to win someone over ..and "win" but then he wants to move on to trying to win again.He may just be looking for the return flattery and not have any interest in carrying it any further.
IOW he's all talk.When you have a loving and attractive wife standing there practically begging you to engage in these "flirtasious" and "sexy exchanges verbally he might have to actually act on it and he has no interest in that.Sounds more like he just wants to talk about it from a safe distance.
JMHO
Love
Dallas
Yes I will agree with Jas and others..
I did the "I can play that game too"..I turned black.Any staifaction from the "revenge" was so fleeting I cant acutally now remember feeling it.Nothing but regret and shame.
And I had a husband that never lost "interest" in the sexual part of our relationship as you know.He cheated for emotional reasons and the sex was just "included" in his whole fairy tale idea the perfect woman for him.He wanted it ALL.
Anyway Im not going to get into that..But revenge cheating just turns you completely jaded.Besides that..think about it..how much respect are you going to have with any man that would engage in an adulteress affair with you?How woudl he be any different than your husband?
Great post Holten...the stuff you said was said by my counselor about my marriage, etc.
Jane - I'm so sorry that you found this stuff. You're post here could just be a reaction, but I hope that you will read Holten's post & really take what he's saying to heart.
The only other suggestion I have for you is to seriously consider biblical counseling by yourself. Without hubby at first. He can always come w/you at a later time.
A counselor to help guide you in how to cope in a biblical & healthy manner is a really good idea. I still feel hopelessness at times, but not near as bad as I did & I no longer take on shame, guilt or blame for the things my H does. My happiness/joy is not contingent on him anymore. It took counseling every other week for a year (I'm still in counseling, just a lot less than before) to get there, but I'm there.
(((Jane))) Love ya girl & your hubby is amazingly blessed to have you! He knows it too, but his sin is keeping him from enjoying what God has blessed him with in you. Sin keeps us from God, it keeps us from joy.
Praying...
Excellent word Holten.
Holten: I am sure the situation is incredibly saddening and angering at the same time, Jane. I won't tell you what I think you should do, unless you ask. But I can tell you what I think about what you've said. I think the whole "that's just who he is" is, fundamentally, enabling. I can completely understand your frustration and the feelings of "why bother". I can also completely understand the thoughts of "two can play at that game". The former is understandable. The latter is, as you point out, bad for YOU, and dangerous. But the fact that he continues in sin is not justification or a reason to enable that sin or to not call him to task for his actions. Deciding that his sinful behavior just is who he is necessarily assumes that he is somehow beyond the reach of God's Grace. And that is a very different situation than YOU being worn out from trying to help him change. It might be true that YOU are completely spent - emotionally and spiritually exhausted. That most likely IS true, and I don't think anyone can think ill of you for it. But that is different than your husband being beyond renewal. In other words - deciding that's just who he is gives up on him completely, including giving up on God's power to change him. Disengaging yourself in that way - no matter how attractive and 'logical' that may feel right now - will accomplish only one thing - it will harm your marriage. It will kill any sense of closeness or intimacy you currently feel... and if you feel nothing right now, it ensures you never will. Disengaging will leave your mind free to wander, and wonder. And as much as you may be telling yourself you just aren't going to think about it, you WILL think about it. You will relive the frustration and pain every time you think about it, and your anger and pain and distrust will grow. Whereas, if you instead give up the notion that YOU can change him, and stop taking personally the things he does, and instead view him as he is - a sinful man under the bondage of sin, then you can retain.. or develop... some compassion. YOU KNOW what it is like to be in bondage. Thank God, you have broken and moved beyond that particular bondage. But if you step back a second and think about it, you connecting your emotional state and to any extent your self image or self-worth to your husband's actions is itself bondage. It works to destroy marriage. And even if it is NOT the case that in your case you are under that sort of bondage, you DO know what it is like to be in the midst of bondage, and how blind you can be to its affects, and effects, and how easy it is to justify and rationalize continued sinful behavior. He *is* where you've been. He's still in that pit. And there is only one hand he can grab to get out of the pit. And it isn't yours. And it is perfectly all right that you are absolutely weary from holding your hand out for him for so long. It is OK to rest and REALLY leave it to God.
JaneFW:I seriously don't understand him. There's all of this going on, and then he's making a big deal that we get away for a long weekend at our 10th wedding anniversary in November. He texted his parents last night to make sure they could come down to cover childcare, and was so pleased when they said they could. So, how does this fit into the jigsaw? He wants to be with me - but he wants to be with other women too? I don't get it.
It may be that he wants what makes him feel like the center of attention...
What did he say about counseling?
JaneFW:Thank you all. It does help to get perspective, and to know for sure that this is not something that I am making a big deal about for no reason. Sometimes, with my h's responses, I wonder about that.
I just want you to know that I think there is good reason to make a big deal about this.
I don't get it either Jane. I just want you to know I am lifting you up in prayer.
I wanted to add that from what you have shared of your hubby it seems to me he does love you.
I'm thinking about this & what happened in my marriage. My hubby had an internet fling with an Eglish woman. She was divorced with 4 kids & it went from the internet to the telephone, they also used webcams to talk...ahem...or whatever. I found that he was also firting with other women, but this one he actually told me he wanted a divorce so he could marry her.
I begged, pleaded cried, screamed, did everything I could to get him to stop the "affair". I didn't understand it at all! At that time our 4th dd had just recovered from a near fatal car accident & we were in the process of losing our 5 barn hog finishing unit/contract. In the end we ended up selling it to keep from defaulting because we lost the contract & that was our major source of income. He had split off from his Dad whom he had farmed with for many years to build this hog finishing site & that was our income.
I had started full time where I am now at the time. I was bringing in money but he wasn't for the first time in our marrage. It was devestating to him on many levels. There was a time when we feared we'd lose our farms & everything. He was upset when I started working because he said he didn't want to break the family tradition of providing for the family so the wife could stay home...this all hit at once. And that's when the affair started.
In the end I called his bluff, found a home to rent & a week before the girls & I were scheduled to move out & into this home he broke down. He cried, he pleaded, he begged, it was really hard to see him like that. He told me he felt like a failure, like he had failed his family, he felt horrible that I had to work, he said he thought he'd rather run me off than to keep me & see my disappointment each day. He said to allow himself to love me was to remind himself of the failure daily...so he was trying to push me away. He said he loved me very much (even though for 6 months he told me he didn't anymore) and that he was sorry.
We agreed I would still move out & we'd work on the marriage while separated.
When I left I think he had hit bottom. That's when his friends witnessed to him & he finally listened (he's surrounded with believing friends & has been his whole life, none in his family but a lot of neighbors, friends, mentors). He started a new business within the hog business with the equipment he had owned before the barns & attained & just after they were built, etc. He started bringing in more money than he did w/the barns & with it came the return of his self-esteem & he no longer does the internet thing or even makes comments about other women, etc.
That's why I think your hubby really needs some counseling. I think it's possible (I could be wrong) that he feels inadequate or insecure because he is not working to provide for his family. I'm not saying he's wrong to be going to school, etc. I understand what he is doing is for a better future for all of you, but do you think there is a part of him that feels like he's failing his family? Have either of you ever discussed this?
It's not an excuse for what he's doing at all. It just seems like he's grasping at anything, anyone that will help him to feel better, or to make him feel good about himself. He's in self-destruct mode for sure.
(((Jane)))
