FamilyLife Forums

No it's not the same in terms of impact on the world.  But it can be harmful, I think that's the distinction Chaz is making...and Alpha.

Women & men are different.  Women are touched more so by the emotional, men the visual.  As a rule of thumb.  So when a women is reading romance novels that portray these "perfect" men who are almost more like women emotionally than men it can cause women to have unrealistic expectations & be disappointed by their spouse's imperfections.

I heard something the other day that was awesome...it was on a FOTF broadcast.  It was basically to be more focused on your own imperfections than your spouse's.

I don't think it's ever a good idea to place expectations on our spouses...not to say I don't fall into that myself, 'cause I do!  But it's better to place our expectations on God because He alone is able to meet them!

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Therefore put on the full armor of God, so that when the day of evil comes, you may be able to stand your ground...

BcauseHeLives:

No it's not the same in terms of impact on the world.  But it can be harmful, I think that's the distinction Chaz is making...and Alpha.

Women & men are different.  Women are touched more so by the emotional, men the visual.  As a rule of thumb.  So when a women is reading romance novels that portray these "perfect" men who are almost more like women emotionally than men it can cause women to have unrealistic expectations & be disappointed by their spouse's imperfections.

Yup that's pretty much exactly what I'm saying.

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Chaz345

GloryOne:

I don't mean to be argumentative, but my ex's expectation was that I would reinact sexual scenes from porn with other people -- my expectation (if any) from romance novels, would have been a loving and romantic relationship.  I really can't see the comparison. 

I do realize that my experience is not everyone's. 

But the picture of a loving and romantic relationship that those books paint isn't real and to a large extent isn't attainable.

There's nothing wrong with wanting a loving and romantic relationship, but anyone  wanting it to look like what it looks like in many of those books is doomed to disappointment.

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Chaz345

I can't figure out how to put someone else's post in mine so you know what I'm referencing so...

Chaz 345 said "there's nothing wrong with wanting a loving and romantic relationship, but anyone wanting it to look like what it looks like in many of those books is doomed to disappointment."

Anyone (male or female) wanting their life to look like something in a book or movie or play or anything is doomed to disappointment. If I'm a cop and I enjoy reading thrillers, which are mostly about crimes, I'm not all of a sudden going to start expecting my job to be like a thriller. It sounds like you're implying that women (Christian women in happy marriages) reading romance novels will have a difficult time distinguising reality from fantasy and therefore shouldn't entertain themselves with such things. I'm not trying to be argumentative, just trying to understand your logic.

I get that you're playing on the fact that the males are represented as being a little "feminine" in these romance novels and you keep saying these guys are also "perfect." That the woman reading them will want her husband to be just like this guy. I've read a romance novel or two (i don't like them) and that's not usually the case. These guys (or gals) are usually troubled or angry but because of the love of this woman (or man), they suddenly change. Yes, it's cheesy and fake and no one believes it's real.

Any Christian woman who is practicing and living out her faith would not be THAT influenced in believing in some fictional character. This is a Chrsitian forum, so those must be the women you are talking about. As stated before, that woman has to have some sort of emotional issue or lacking  something else in order for her (a practicing Christian) to set these new expectations on her already wonderful husband. (That woman needs prayer and counsel to find out what is really troubling her) The situation you're mentioning is very unlikely. But I'm sure it's possible. Anything is possible.

But again, comparing this to porn (which is a written sin) is not comparable.

Chaz345 said "Even Christian romance novels can create the expectations problems I'm talking about.
http://blackingoutthefiction.wordpress.com/2009/06/22/christy-miller-and-problems-with-christian-fairy-tales/
I'll grant that clean romance stories aren't sin the way that porn is, but that doesn't necessarily  mean that they are harmless. And in the one respect that both create problematic expectations, they do have something in common with porn."

If what you say is true, everything in the entire world (and I do mean everything!) can create expectations. When I listen to Moody or Focus on the Family or FamilyLife or any other Christian program and here these stories of how a married couple respected, loved, trusted, and encouraged one another it could make me wonder "Hmmm, why doesn't my husband respect, love, trust, and encourage me like that husband?" We hear these stories all the time on the Christian programs.

Here's why there is no comparison...

Porn affects the marriage on so many sinful levels (if your concern is romance novels create UNREALISTIC EXPECTATION problems). Porn on the other hand creates problems of: LUST, BETRAYAL, TRUST, SELF GRATIFICATION, ISOLATION, and unrealistic expectations. If your only argument is that reading romance novels creates unrealistic expectations for women, you need to find another "male" problem to compare it to because porn isn't it.

mzjh20:

Chaz345 said "Even Christian romance novels can create the expectations problems I'm talking about.
http://blackingoutthefiction.wordpress.com/2009/06/22/christy-miller-and-problems-with-christian-fairy-tales/
I'll grant that clean romance stories aren't sin the way that porn is, but that doesn't necessarily  mean that they are harmless. And in the one respect that both create problematic expectations, they do have something in common with porn."

If what you say is true, everything in the entire world (and I do mean everything!) can create expectations. When I listen to Moody or Focus on the Family or FamilyLife or any other Christian program and here these stories of how a married couple respected, loved, trusted, and encouraged one another it could make me wonder "Hmmm, why doesn't my husband respect, love, trust, and encourage me like that husband?" We hear these stories all the time on the Christian programs.

Here's why there is no comparison...

Porn affects the marriage on so many sinful levels (if your concern is romance novels create UNREALISTIC EXPECTATION problems). Porn on the other hand creates problems of: LUST, BETRAYAL, TRUST, SELF GRATIFICATION, ISOLATION, and unrealistic expectations. If your only argument is that reading romance novels creates unrealistic expectations for women, you need to find another "male" problem to compare it to because porn isn't it.

Many romance novels have a major lust component. In fact some of the one's I've seen excerpts from are every bit a graphic in their detail as some of the porn stories I used to read.

But that aside apparently you haven't actually been reading what I've said since I've said more than once that only in the respect that both create unrealistic expectations, the two are similar.

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Chaz345

mzjh20:

These guys (or gals) are usually troubled or angry but because of the love of this woman (or man), they suddenly change. Yes, it's cheesy and fake and no one believes it's real.

Really? Actually I think it's quite common that a woman marries a man expecting to be able to change significant aspects about who he is.

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Chaz345

Men may compare the physical features of one woman to another, which in the case of porn, their wife may not measure up to. In that sense it creates a dissatisfaction in the marriage, with a lessening of interest in their wife. Or the wife becomes simply a body.How often wives complain that they are not appreciated for who they are in their totality, mind and soul as well as body. That is why they are vulnerable to another man who is happy to just talk to them and pay them compliments.

But in a romance novel, the hero in the story may be a man who is gentle, wittty, rich, flamboyant, generous, and brings romantic excitement to his love interest. He is also an avid conversationalist. He has all the qualities that most women long for in a mate. But her real-life husband is dull, boring, full of self-interest, unromantic, and never does anything to excite his wife. That sets up a dissatisfaction with the man she has got. She secretly longs to be ravished. The novel provides a kind of "emotional ravishment" that she does not get from her husband. Either emotionally or physically.
That dissatisfaction with the mate she has got is of the same calibre as a man's dissatisfaction over physical qualities, due to watching the physical form of women he is not married to.

When this topic has been aired on this forum in the past, the depiction of romance novels as a kind of "female porn" has been attributed to a few cranky men who post here. But is was noteworthy that 3 decades ago the N Y Times described them as "women's pornography". Of course they were referring to those romance novels that describe a sexual encounter in graphic detail. These books were in line with the trend in movies, which was to include a sex scene in order to lift it's profile at the box office.

But not all novels are equal. Nor are all images of females. It could be considered  as a sliding scale, from harmless to harmful. At one end may be a movie like "Mary Poppins", and at the other some very risque flick. At one end of the novel spectrum may be "Wuthering Heights, and at the other a "bodice ripper".
What may affect one person may not another. But in you were to line up 10 in a row, based on the sliding scale of the degree of drift from O K to explicit, at what point would the line to indecency be crossed? My guess is that it would vary for different people.
I heard a testimony of a man trapped in porn saying that he got hooked when he was 8yrs old. What had triggered his pathway to porn? It was watching an episode of the "Dean Martin" show. In the one segment were some scantily clad women. But other males watching were not impacted like that.

And consider that most children from 5yrs up are watching music videos without parents batting an eyelid. The MTV generation are daily exposed to soft porn music videos, with near naked females disporting their bodies in ways that leave nothing to the imagination, gyrating in sexually simulated poses, while fully clothed men eye them up and down.
Somehow we have to live in the world in a way that pleases God. We can't be unrealistic, and escape to a Monastery like some did in church history.

chaz345:

mzjh20:

These guys (or gals) are usually troubled or angry but because of the love of this woman (or man), they suddenly change. Yes, it's cheesy and fake and no one believes it's real.

Really? Actually I think it's quite common that a woman marries a man expecting to be able to change significant aspects about who he is.

How many romance novels have you read that you have formed this opinion?

I think this could be a matter of perspective because of the mild romance novels I've read I've not seen this as a major theme.

I also don't understand the link you provided Chaz.  In those series of books that the author of the article is talking about, it sounds like the author is encouraging young women to place their expectations on God & follow Him to find the man He desires for them.

Kathy Tricolli - I believe her name is - she is a praise & worship singer...very talented & has several CD's and does concerts, ect.  She - last I read - is not married but has a desire to be.  She keeps a journal where she writes to her beloved husband as well.  I found it very endearing & sweet. 

I guess the article has me stumped.

Another thing that has struck me in this discussion is the expectations that are placed on women & those seemingly being okay.

You speak of change in the context above as though it's a bad thing, but if a wife is not sexual or doesn't see the importance of it in her marriage wouldn't you expect that her mindset would need to change? 

I know from past discussions here that there is an expectation from some men that their wives will recognize the importance of sex & meet that need.  I know from past discussions that if someone were to come here to express their pain over not having that need met that some men will tell them that she needs to change her mindset.

If a person is reading a book about Christian sexuality would that then place unrealistic expectations in their minds?

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Therefore put on the full armor of God, so that when the day of evil comes, you may be able to stand your ground...

The original question of why porn is addressed more in churches and not romance novels is probably explained by porn is a lot more harmful to the world than romance novels.  Not saying that's right or wrong.  I really can't see any parent being even remotely as upset by their child being a romance novelist as being an actor in porn. 

A lot of things create unrealistic expectations -- even a cookbook -- my cooking sure never comes out like the picture.  

I am new to posting here and I haven't figured it out yet as far as responding to a quote or a specific part of someone's post. 

Whooo...   where is the "Lance Romance"?   There really is such a thing as Lance Romance.  Just like there is such a thing as a women being WILD.. in the bedroom.    Whats the problem?  If your married be the Lance and the *** in the bedroom! Sheesh!   Whats so hard about that. lol

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If God is for us, who can be against us? Rom. 8:31

I thank everyone for all your posts.  Sorry I haven't responded until today.
I'll respond to some individual posts soon.

This issue hurts my faith so much that it makes me doubt if God even exists.
Why?  Because I don't understand how a loving God would create one gender to
be so vulnerable to porn and thus sexual sin.  I understand that between 50% and
90% of CHRISTIAN men use porn, yet the vast majority of women do not feel the pull
of porn.  What do women struggle with?  Gossip?  Is that a real struggle?  Are they
ADDICTED to gossip?  I don't think so.  I think gossip is a habit that a woman can
mostly defeat without too much pain.  There's no biological and chemical addiction
to break.

Basically what I'm saying is that men are screwed purely for being men.  Men are
especially prone to violating God's rules in the sexual arena.  And then, to add insult
to injury, the Christian church is quick to pounce on men's particular sin of porn use,
on a level that far exceeds how hard they come down on women's particular sins, like gossip.
 

BcauseHeLives:

chaz345:

mzjh20:

These guys (or gals) are usually troubled or angry but because of the love of this woman (or man), they suddenly change. Yes, it's cheesy and fake and no one believes it's real.

Really? Actually I think it's quite common that a woman marries a man expecting to be able to change significant aspects about who he is.

How many romance novels have you read that you have formed this opinion?

I think this could be a matter of perspective because of the mild romance novels I've read I've not seen this as a major theme.

I also don't understand the link you provided Chaz.  In those series of books that the author of the article is talking about, it sounds like the author is encouraging young women to place their expectations on God & follow Him to find the man He desires for them.

Kathy Tricolli - I believe her name is - she is a praise & worship singer...very talented & has several CD's and does concerts, ect.  She - last I read - is not married but has a desire to be.  She keeps a journal where she writes to her beloved husband as well.  I found it very endearing & sweet. 

I guess the article has me stumped.

Another thing that has struck me in this discussion is the expectations that are placed on women & those seemingly being okay.

You speak of change in the context above as though it's a bad thing, but if a wife is not sexual or doesn't see the importance of it in her marriage wouldn't you expect that her mindset would need to change? 

I know from past discussions here that there is an expectation from some men that their wives will recognize the importance of sex & meet that need.  I know from past discussions that if someone were to come here to express their pain over not having that need met that some men will tell them that she needs to change her mindset.

If a person is reading a book about Christian sexuality would that then place unrealistic expectations in their minds?

I don't need to have read romance novels to know that women often marry the man they think they can turn their fiancee into. And it was someone else who said that element is present in romance.

As for the expectations, I think you maybe picked a bad example since sex between husband and wife is Biblically commanded. It's an objective thing that's either happening or not, whereas a lot of the changes that women set out to accomplish in their man are a) subjective, a matter of their own opinion and b) have nothing to do with any Biblical commands.  Unless of course you can show me where in the Bible the man is supposed to "just know" what she wants/needs.

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Chaz345

chaz345:

I don't need to have read romance novels to know that women often marry the man they think they can turn their fiancee into. And it was someone else who said that element is present in romance.

As for the expectations, I think you maybe picked a bad example since sex between husband and wife is Biblically commanded. It's an objective thing that's either happening or not, whereas a lot of the changes that women set out to accomplish in their man are a) subjective, a matter of their own opinion and b) have nothing to do with any Biblical commands.  Unless of course you can show me where in the Bible the man is supposed to "just know" what she wants/needs.

So the expectations most men have are biblical & the expectations most women have are unbiblical?  That's how this reads to me, but I'm asking so you can clarify because I'm sure I'm reading you wrong.

Let's make a safe assumption that most Christian women desire for their husbands to be biblical husbands.  Is it okay for her to expect that he will follow God's commands to Him as husband & father without fail?

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Therefore put on the full armor of God, so that when the day of evil comes, you may be able to stand your ground...

It's interesting to me that this thread has changed as it moved to page 3.  The OP asls - unequivocally - whether "Christians are hypocritical when it comes to sexual sin" and compares "men's use of pornography" to "women's use of romance novels (and the like)".  I don't know what "and the like" means and he doesn't explain. 

He also compares "hard core porn videos and magazines" and "romance novels."

Yet, as this thread has progressed, it seems that in fact the argument is not that porn = romance novels, but rather that romantic novels are at fault for causing a wrongful expectation in women, which is just one aspect of porn, of course. 

So, is it not sinful to read romance novels after all then? 

I'm just curious, okay - and interested to see where it went. 

Interesting to me also that the OP has not made a second contribution anywhere.