FamilyLife Forums

BcauseHeLives:

dallasapple:

spare_parts:

dallasapple:

spare_parts:

dallasapple:

"

And he makes the mistake of not only lumping everyone in one group, but then invalidating that whole group, then contradicts himself by saying they should not assume motives, etc."

 

NO he does not..He is saying that is the WRONG way to go.He is saying that view is out there and its HURTING men.

Shoot your self in the foot hun..I dont care.Its your foot not mine.

Love

Dallas

 

So what you are saying is you are no more willing to validate than he is.

Apparently, you can't even bring yourself to say, "I can see where such an opening statement would close dialog and appears prejudiced."

Instead, you just tell folks they are wrong for not finding what he's said to be empowering or affirming.

You can tell me I'm wrong all you want.  But then how is that empowering or affirming to keep saying I'm wrong?

You don't affirm by finding fault.  You affirm by agreeing with the parts you can agree with.

This guy started with DISAGREEMENT.  Which is NOT affirming, nor is it empowering.

So you can call this affirming.  You can also sit in your garage and say you are a car.  In both cases, saying it doesn't make it true.

 

Im not looking at "opening statements" Im not narrow minded.The man was DISAGREEING with the method and MIND set.

And I dont care if you are "wrong " or not..I am not here to "affirm you".Im here to fight for my sons rights if his girlfriend decides to run off with my sons child my grandbaby..Im not going to sit back and whine and talk about the mean mommy's .Im not going to draw a gender war .Only speak to the rights of men and women alike.

I have my stakes in this battle and Im a feminist.I like this guy ..and its because he sees CLEARLY attacking women isnt the best way to go.Men and women have very common interest.The "mans movement" is starting off on the wrong foot.And when you trip over your self dont blame me.(a woman)There are more like us.

Love

Dallas

Yet he's not willing to stop attacking men yet.  So what he says doesn't match up with what he does.  If it's wrong for men to attack, then why is it OK for him to attack?

Like I said, he has some good points, but hides them by not living up to his own standards.  If attacking by these so called "violent" (basically that's an attack on these men) is not going to accomplish the stated goals, then why would he think it's a valid tactic to attack those men.

By his own actions, he is saying that attacks are the way to go.

Sure, his words say no, but then he uses attacking language.

So my question is what does the author REALLY believe the solution is, because it's obvious he doesn't believe what he's just written.

 

HE is NOT attacking MEN..He's saying MEN need to STOP the  attack  on women MEN and WOMEN alike have RIGHTS.

If YOU want to deny there is not a hostile and violent attack on women by men GO ahead.He is saying that aint gonna work.And he is right.Its not going to achieve rights in family court..Its not going to help you advance in men's movements against violence against them.

Love

Dallas

That's how I saw it too Dallas.  But instead I think they are seeing this as an attack on them.  So they must see themselves as the men that this guy is speaking of. 

Why else be so defensive?

I don't know, perhaps you could think of something more charitable regarding your brothers in Christ.

You know, like what they are saying.

I clearly said this author is lumping the violent extremists into the same group as those who are non-violent dissenters.

But instead of validating that, you make it sound as those who disagree have something to be defensive about.

Now that's charitable. 

Is that an example of the validation you wanted me to get from reading this article?

It's comments like you made here which destroy any credibility you have with regards to providing affirmation, empowerment, etc.

What sort of affirmation or empowerment should I have taken from what you and dallas are writing here?

---

It is illogical to argue logic with someone unwilling to examine more than his/her feelings on a matter.

BcauseHeLives:

spare_parts:

BcauseHeLives:

spare_parts:

BcauseHeLives:

Okay Spare...you don't like the guy.  Duly noted.

Moving on...

Duly mis-noted.  I might enjoy having a beer with him.  I simply disagree with what he's written.  I don't know if I'd like him or not.

This is part of the problem.  I've been talking about the article, what he wrote.  You framed it as I don't like the guy.

It has nothing to do with liking him or not liking him.  It has to do with his approach here.

How about you address the meat of my complaints instead of attributing some sort of bogus social commentary on if I like him or not?

Be blessed Spare...

Not one bit of acknowledgment.

You know you cannot support your assumption that I don't like the guy.  So instead of saying so, you just say "be blessed" and run off.

I presented facts, supported my assertion with examples from the article that it was neither empowering, nor affirming.

Not one bit of validation.  Not one bit of, "I can see how you might come to that view" or similar.

You speak of validation, but I find little evidence you know how to practice it. 

Instead, it's cut and run.

Be blessed. That must be code for, "you got me, so I'm not going to concede you have any sort of point, so I'm going to run now."

So much for validation.

Grow up Spare, I owe you nothing.  You are not entitled to argue with me.

I mean really.

Be blessed, means be blessed.  It's not code for anything.  Kind of "ironic" you would take my words & make them into something other than what they were...or maybe hypocritical?  I don't know...you decide.

I'm just walking away altogether.  Dropping the rope where you are concerned.  No more tug of war.  You'll have to find someone else to pick up the rope.

Yeah, I could tell you were dropping the rope with your comment about being defensive.

Except it felt more like a knife in the back.

You say rope, I feel knife.

OK, please don't drop any more ropes in my back.

---

It is illogical to argue logic with someone unwilling to examine more than his/her feelings on a matter.

BcauseHeLives:

Grow up Spare, I owe you nothing.

Apparently not.  After all, your attitude about owing nothing explains the lack of Christian charity you demonstrate to your brothers here.  So apparently, you don't even feel you owe the courtesy scripture calls for you to share with your brothers in Christ.

BcauseHeLives:

  You are not entitled to argue with me.

Yet it appears you feel entitled to argue with me.  You also appear to feel entitled to stab folks in the back, to make derogatory comments, assumptions, etc.

Apparently, not only do you believe I'm not entitled to argue, but I'm not even entitled to have a different view.

Because when I express a different view, you accuse me of being defensive.  So apparently, according to the words you've expressed here, because I disagree, I must have something to hide, or something to be ashamed about. 

It sure looks like that is what you were saying to dallas.

Tell me again, how does that validate your brother in Christ?  Is that the best possible way you could view what I've said?  Is the the most charitable giving a brother the benefit of the doubt you could come up with?

BcauseHeLives:

I mean really.

Be blessed, means be blessed.  It's not code for anything.  Kind of "ironic" you would take my words & make them into something other than what they were...or maybe hypocritical?  I don't know...you decide.

Perhaps it's due to the comments like the one about being defensive?  Perhaps it's the lack of seeing any sort of acknowledgment that educated Christian folks can see things differently and it not be due to some character or mental defect, or some evil agenda or motive.

BcauseHeLives:

I'm just walking away altogether.  Dropping the rope where you are concerned.  No more tug of war.  You'll have to find someone else to pick up the rope.

Like I said, when did stabbign someone in the back become dropping the rope?

---

It is illogical to argue logic with someone unwilling to examine more than his/her feelings on a matter.

Dallas, I really want to explore this article in detail.  Would you be willing to do that with me avoiding anyone that wants to argue about it or even debate?  I'm not against debate but lately it's a bit much.

I'm leaving in 45 minutes for the weekend but I'll be back Sunday evening.  I'd love to talk about this with you! :)

Let me know if you want to...maybe you just want to forget it...if so I understand.

Be blessed!

---

Therefore put on the full armor of God, so that when the day of evil comes, you may be able to stand your ground...

i explored it in great detail...I pasted a dozen quotes at least and my comments on them. i did  NOT just paste articles....OBVIOUSLY no one read my comments...ADMIT that please, or, stop telling me what i said.

You have no basis, you have no specifics, and you have zero depth in these comments here. Your "general impression" of "what Im sayin" is ittelevant

---

Cool Im banned TOO.
Enjoy it Holten and Company!

divorce in church:

i explored it in great detail...I pasted a dozen quotes at least and my comments on them. i did  NOT just paste articles....OBVIOUSLY no one read my comments...ADMIT that please, or, stop telling me what i said.

You have no basis, you have no specifics, and you have zero depth in these comments here. Your "general impression" of "what Im sayin" is ittelevant

 

Maybe no one cares what you are saying because you arent saying anything besides whining and complainign like a little baby..

This man has vision you dont.You go on and keep whining and complaining..Dust in the wind ..while peoplel who care do something one step at a time..You have done NOTHING but complain.It doesnt surprise me you would complain about this article too.That inspires others.

Thats your job.Whine  and cry.

Go cry in a corner while the rest of us figure things out.

If you want to "get mad" Go to any one of your hundreds of whining and complaining threads you have started and cry some more.

Post a new article of how men are mistreated by a writer's view.

Good luck DIC..

Love

Dallas

But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another. "

Once I saw this quote--"(1) Assert a feminist-supportive and male-positive perspective. "

and this quote:  "How do we assert a pro-feminist and male-positive understanding of men?"

I saw this article has having as it's primary tenets:

1.  Feminism in its current state is good, and deserving of acceptance, defense, and nurturing.

2.  The proper context for addressing any men's issue is that which revolves around a mindset that accepts, supports and protects feminism as we know it.

It lost me right there; If anyone wants to bring up an article that says "Men are needing to address their issues, but let's first let God have His way through the scriptures"--I'll be right in there.

I regret posting it here..And I regret my reactions to the reactions it brought.Chalk it up to bad decisions made by me.

Love

Dallas

dallasapple:

I regret posting it here..And I regret my reactions to the reactions it brought.Chalk it up to bad decisions made by me.

Love

Dallas

Actually you didn't want to post it here Dallas, but I told you it'd be a good idea so I'll take responsibility for convincing you to do it.  I'm not convinced yet that this guy is off his rocker.  But I do intend to read it & really pick through it to see if I missed the boat on this one. 

I do regret that you guys find it so offensive.  I'm praying that it's because it truly is offensive & not for other reasons.  I'm not trying to offend, I'll be honest, I feel as though anything some of us says or posts here it won't be good. 

I do apologize for the comment above in stating that maybe you guys feel as this guy is describing some men feel.  I was wrong, it was said in pure frustration w/out thinking of how it would make you feel. 

HI - I read it differently.  I will admit I was at work & speed read the article.  But the way I read it was that he does believe that feminism in it's current form is causing problems for men, but it's because the women are feeling attacked.  He does believe that the men are getting the shaft.  He's not saying they aren't but that the way that men are going about fighting back is completely wrong.  It's going on the defensive & attacking instead of working with the women. 

Maybe I should link you guys to the horrible things being said about women in this anti-feminism movement.  Then let you re-read some of the stuff you guys are saying here.  It's this constant need to be upset that women have things like a heart attack awareness, etc & that you find it so offensive as if women don't need that stuff.  As if we're stealing it from you guys.  There were other like threads here as well.  And each time a sin of men is brought up we hear "yeah well women are part of it" yes we know that, but you're men deal w/your part of the sins...?  It's so frustrating, and I know that nothing I say here will make a bit of difference.

It's not an us or them situation...that's what I read him to say.  We need to work together.  Keep all the good that was done for the women & work at strengthening the men.

If this isn't a solution, please tell me what is?  We've done enough discussing the problem...are you going to ever move onto the solution?  Each time us ladies try to we're told we missed the boat.  So we quite literally cannot help you in this. 

But can you hear us w/out being defensive?  You all are making us feel beat up.

Dallas' intent on posting this was to help not hurt.  She is trying to understand & help...as am I & other ladies here.

It seems that unless we move to understand & help to move forward this family forum will continue to be over-run w/this stuff.  And a lot of it is so disheartening to me & I know to other ladies.

Do you want us to ignore it?  Just not pay any attention to it?  Let you discuss & stay out of it?

What do you want from us?

---

Therefore put on the full armor of God, so that when the day of evil comes, you may be able to stand your ground...

BcauseHeLives:

dallasapple:

I regret posting it here..And I regret my reactions to the reactions it brought.Chalk it up to bad decisions made by me.

Love

Dallas

Actually you didn't want to post it here Dallas, but I told you it'd be a good idea so I'll take responsibility for convincing you to do it.  I'm not convinced yet that this guy is off his rocker.  But I do intend to read it & really pick through it to see if I missed the boat on this one. 

I do regret that you guys find it so offensive.  I'm praying that it's because it truly is offensive & not for other reasons.  I'm not trying to offend, I'll be honest, I feel as though anything some of us says or posts here it won't be good. 

I do apologize for the comment above in stating that maybe you guys feel as this guy is describing some men feel.  I was wrong, it was said in pure frustration w/out thinking of how it would make you feel. 

HI - I read it differently.  I will admit I was at work & speed read the article.  But the way I read it was that he does believe that feminism in it's current form is causing problems for men, but it's because the women are feeling attacked.  He does believe that the men are getting the shaft.  He's not saying they aren't but that the way that men are going about fighting back is completely wrong.  It's going on the defensive & attacking instead of working with the women. 

Maybe I should link you guys to the horrible things being said about women in this anti-feminism movement.  Then let you re-read some of the stuff you guys are saying here.  It's this constant need to be upset that women have things like a heart attack awareness, etc & that you find it so offensive as if women don't need that stuff.  As if we're stealing it from you guys.  There were other like threads here as well.  And each time a sin of men is brought up we hear "yeah well women are part of it" yes we know that, but you're men deal w/your part of the sins...?  It's so frustrating, and I know that nothing I say here will make a bit of difference.

It's not an us or them situation...that's what I read him to say.  We need to work together.  Keep all the good that was done for the women & work at strengthening the men.

If this isn't a solution, please tell me what is?  We've done enough discussing the problem...are you going to ever move onto the solution?  Each time us ladies try to we're told we missed the boat.  So we quite literally cannot help you in this. 

But can you hear us w/out being defensive?  You all are making us feel beat up.

Dallas' intent on posting this was to help not hurt.  She is trying to understand & help...as am I & other ladies here.

It seems that unless we move to understand & help to move forward this family forum will continue to be over-run w/this stuff.  And a lot of it is so disheartening to me & I know to other ladies.

Do you want us to ignore it?  Just not pay any attention to it?  Let you discuss & stay out of it?

What do you want from us?

 

I will answer this very briefly. I can say what I want. I could try and refute some of the things I see here in this post, that we feel things have been taken away to benefit women for example...I definately do not feel that way. My grievance is the everpresent remnants and actual believe of two things:

1. women are still getting shafted

2. Men are bad.

Never are either of those things stated outright. One thing I do conversationally on topic 1. above is refer those who complain about womens roles to the Titanic Memorial. There you see the place women HAD in society....and didnt seem to like it. That was somehow bad. Now, if there were a Titanic, I dare say there would sadly sadly be more men taking womens seats on life boats. THATS a human tradegy...and should NEVER have been where our society evolved. I like to see myself as one who'd still go down with the ship. I LIKE that.

2. No one says men are bad. But note the absurd comments I made on the other thread about racism and smoking. Hopefully it seemed a little strange that i was pointing out things that we dont just already know, but have taken major and succssful strides to correct. But to my ears, when I read "men need to step up"...as I did in that thread....thats how it sounds. It sounds that ridiculous. We can pick a million behaviors and repeat them over and again, "X needs to step up" and it starts to sound dismissive. It is an easy way to discuss a problem, "well thats simple, men need to just step up" I recall quite well and I agree fully, that in terms of actually working on problems, its likely best that men deal with men and women with women. Meaning, its one thing to discuss an issue together w/ the genders, its quite another to snipe "women need to step up". In fact I have never read those words, and certainly never seen that sentiment as casually and frequently delivered as it is from both men and women to men. It gets old. HI had a comment in that thread that basically said he saw this step up thing as a way to keep throwing blame on something that was already being corrected and done big time. He said it far better than I can.

 

There is not a comparison between the so called "womens movement" and the "mens movement". For starters, there wasnt ever a snipe "women need to step up" as a backdrop to the whole womens movement. The movement was to benefit....not tear down and NOT to correct. Thats a difference, confusing benefiting men, and fixing men, and benefiting men at the expense of someone else.

 

I assure you Im not going to further argue this. I will not discuss the article anymore...you all go ahead.  Maybe everyone is right and Im wrong. Could easily be. Sometimes there are though a few voices pointing things out and getting ill received for doing so....and ends up they had some valid things to say.

Only time will tell.

---

Cool Im banned TOO.
Enjoy it Holten and Company!

The women werent happy during Titanic times because without the man..she had no role...other than that of maybe poor widow or spinster.You seem to forget in the story line of the movie made of that the young woman was being pressured to marry a jerk buy her poor widowed mother.The mothers only hope to not live in poverty was to marry her daughter off to someone she didnt love.I personally would rather drown myself.Just like she would.Not to mention the many women that chose to drown with their husbands rather than to live on without them.

If thats what it boils down to that women having the option to be independent and not be limited to depending on men to survive means he doesnt care if she drowns or not then so be it.Maybe its not a tragedy.

Love

Dallas

divorce in church:

I will answer this very briefly. I can say what I want. I could try and refute some of the things I see here in this post, that we feel things have been taken away to benefit women for example...I definately do not feel that way. My grievance is the everpresent remnants and actual believe of two things:

1. women are still getting shafted  - In the "men's activist movement" they are.  In some circles men are shafting the women.  It is a folcrum.  It was covered in smear here at FL forum not too long ago...on the old forum.  Women here were even being followed around the internet & an attempt was made to shut them up.  It's all over the internet DiC.  It's happening, in alarming, increasing numbers.  That's what this author is addressing.  Those types of men's movements.

2. Men are bad. - He's not saying all men are bad.  He's saying that in increasing numbers there are groups who are out to stomp on the women.  That is what he's addressing.  Those men are going about it the wrong way, and they're very much so bad...bad for the honest/integrity filled men's movements...bad for women...bad for soceity.

Never are either of those things stated outright. One thing I do conversationally on topic 1. above is refer those who complain about womens roles to the Titanic Memorial. There you see the place women HAD in society....and didnt seem to like it. That was somehow bad. Now, if there were a Titanic, I dare say there would sadly sadly be more men taking womens seats on life boats. THATS a human tradegy...and should NEVER have been where our society evolved. I like to see myself as one who'd still go down with the ship. I LIKE that. - I have no doubt you would go down w/the boat. 

2. No one says men are bad. But note the absurd comments I made on the other thread about racism and smoking. Hopefully it seemed a little strange that i was pointing out things that we dont just already know, but have taken major and succssful strides to correct. But to my ears, when I read "men need to step up"...as I did in that thread....thats how it sounds. It sounds that ridiculous. We can pick a million behaviors and repeat them over and again, "X needs to step up" and it starts to sound dismissive. It is an easy way to discuss a problem, "well thats simple, men need to just step up"

I recall quite well and I agree fully, that in terms of actually working on problems, its likely best that men deal with men and women with women.  - Then why the need to bring this topic to the Family Forum time & again & make sure to point out what it is that women do wrong time & again?  If men should deal with men...take it to the men's forum & deal with it.  If women should deal with women...let them.  No woman here feels she's better than any many here.  I can almost guarantee that.  If what you are discussing is a men's issue & you feel men need to actually work on it...then do it!  Do it w/out dragging the women in it!  I mean in all practicality what response should we have?  Do you want us to tell you how men can step it up?  Of course you don't!  So why involve us in the discussion if you don't want us involved?

Meaning, its one thing to discuss an issue together w/ the genders, its quite another to snipe "women need to step up". In fact I have never read those words, and certainly never seen that sentiment as casually and frequently delivered as it is from both men and women to men. It gets old.

HI had a comment in that thread that basically said he saw this step up thing as a way to keep throwing blame on something that was already being corrected and done big time. He said it far better than I can. - yeah I read that.  I'll respond to that there.

 

There is not a comparison between the so called "womens movement" and the "mens movement". For starters, there wasnt ever a snipe "women need to step up" as a backdrop to the whole womens movement. The movement was to benefit....not tear down and NOT to correct. - I don't get this at all DiC.  Are you saying that the men's movement is trying to tear down men & to correct them and not to benefit them?  I think this is where we disconnect.  So are you saying that the numbers are incorrect?  There truly isn't a problem with men at all?  They don't need correcting?

Thats a difference, confusing benefiting men, and fixing men, and benefiting men at the expense of someone else. - like I said & this author is saying, there is a movement to "put women in their proper place" so men can dominate.  It's a reverse exteme feminism.  It's extreme sexism & it's real & it's dangerous & it's growing steam.

 

 Sometimes there are though a few voices pointing things out and getting ill received for doing so....and ends up they had some valid things to say. - am I one of those people?  Or are you convinced I'm out to get men & bring them down? 

Further...I am not saying that there needs to be a change in how all of this is handled.  I am not an extreme feminist.  I believe that men should be leaders in all things.  I believe in submitting to my husband as onto the Lord.  I am soon to be at home doing what I believe to be the most important job I can do this side of heaven, take care of my husband, children & home. 

I do believe that there are times when men get the shaft.  I believe here are times when women get the shaft.  I believe there are groups out there battling to be on top.  A power struggle orchestrated by Satan.  Ultra feminists vs Ultra sexists. 

We as believers have something those people don't.  We have Truth.  We have perfect direction from our Father. 

Unfortunately there is a problem even w/in the church.  That is that men in larger numbers than women do not feed & water their faith.  Because of that we have chaos. 

I think the key is to figure out why men do not water & feed their faith.  And to appreciate & honor those men who do!

Women also need to "step up" and be women after God's own heart in spite of what our husbands are or are not doing.  We need to build up, to stay committed, to love our husband's with agape love.  It will take a two fold effort...it'll take a body of Christ effort, it will take strong & bold faith to fight Satan!

 

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Therefore put on the full armor of God, so that when the day of evil comes, you may be able to stand your ground...

Respectfully, I'm just not getting further in.

Some things I said were understood, others not. Its ok. I have the right to speak, but no one has trhe right to be heard, or to be understood. And thats OK...I accept it.

Trying further leads me to where I dont want to be.

---

Cool Im banned TOO.
Enjoy it Holten and Company!

If womens rights orgs were advising women to "step up" .. I would investigate to what it was an apparent movement thought I needed to step up to..and if I was already stepped up in that area I would realize that applies not to me and move on.Realizing maybe there was a significant amount of women needing to step up in that area ...

And besides that..women are getting PLENTY of messages to be better mothers..betters lovers..better everything.I tried to mention that in another thread and it turned into it being explained to me women are more of a danger to children than men debate.There are plenty of messages that women get that we better "step up" or else in this or that dept of life.

To believe that men are the only ones being pressured to do more..be more "step up" is to be blind.

Love

Dallas