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I have been reading the theory and principles behind “Love Must Be Tough” by James Dobson.  The principles seem appropriate for our situation.  She feels hurt by me for the years of control, lack of appreciation, and lack of support.  I am taking the steps to change.  She has acknowledged that she sees the changes yet says she does not feel them.  She has mentioned moving out several times and I have said I am not going to stop you, but have also begged her to give it time before she goes.  She says she wants to move into an apartment, but the ones she found all had year leases, and she wanted something shorter.  I have begged her not to on two occasions. 

 

We tried marriage counseling.  We had two meetings with our pastor, and after the second one she felt like her feelings were not being taken into an account and that the years of hurt and pain can’t just go away.  We meet with a different marriage / grief counselor last Monday and when she asked the counselor what do with all the feelings she was having towards me the counselor asked her to write them down.  My wife did not see the benefit in that and right after we left the counseling session she exploded on me.  She has since said she is not ready for marriage counseling, and she needs to focus on herself, and she just wants to be happy.  She does have an appointment next Monday for an individual grief counselor.  She says she loves me, but is not in love with me.  However, her actions are not all negative.  Sometimes she says she wants to work on the relationship.  Her feelings can change 3 times in one hour.  She started texting this guy a lot and I confronted her and she admitted to it being inappropriate, but only the start of an emotional affair.  She said it was wrong and she would stop.  According the “Love Must Be Tough” principals (very simplified) I should tell her she is free to go and open the cage for her.   

 

However, there is one thing that is holding me back from all this.  Her dad died in July after a year long battle with lung cancer.  The year long ordeal took its toll on my wife.  She was an emotional wreck for a year.  When he died her grief went through the roof.  I know everyone grieves differently, but for her this was a major loss.  Also on her plate 2 weeks after her dad died she found out her mother has terminal cancer and has 2 years to live.  The breakdown in our relationship occurred shortly after her mom ended up in the hospital from side effects of chemo, and seeing her mom for the first time without any hair.   She has not had any grief counseling.  This next Monday will be her first appointment.  I have not been a good husband for the last 14 years all and my recent attempts to change and help out more have been meet with resentment and anger.  I know this is normal, and there is no timeline to be followed. 

 

She asked for space the other day, and rather than her move out and really disrupt the children’s lives I suggested I move out for a while.  I am staying in a hotel for now.

 

Her family has called me and asked about her because she has ignored their calls and has not confided our relationship problems to them.  She used to confide every detail of her life with her sister and mother.  Now they are asking me what is going on.  Early in this her sister told her she could not believe she was going to give up on our marriage.  Her sister encouraged her to work on our marriage.  After that conversation my wife said she was tired of her family controlling her also.  She has abandoned all her old friends she says that her friends are trying are trying to control her and only want from her.  She is tired of giving to all of them.  She has not confided her feelings about our relationship to her family or old friends.  She has started a new friendship with a lady 30 years older than her.  They have only been friends for about 3 months (right after her dad died and her mom was diagnosed) my wife says this lady is like a mother to her, and the lady says she is like the daughter she never had.  This lady has given her a job at a business she owns.  My wife was a stay at home mom until 1 month ago.  This lady has taken my wife out and bought her clothes.  They are planning a trip to Jamaica together.  She spends 4 to 5 nights a week with her.  She also works with her so they are together all the time.

 

So with all that should I follow the tough love guidelines and set her free, or is this not the time for tough love?   Any advice will be greatly appreciated.

Have a look at these articles.
http://marriagecouncillor.blogspot.com/2009/02/intervening-when-sin-is-destroying.html
www.familyministries.com/Reconciling_husbands.htm
www.peacemaker.net/site/c.aqKFLTOBIpH/b.1315175/k.608E/The_Myths_of_Divorce.htm
www.peacemaker.net/site/apps/nlnet/content2.aspx?c=aqKFLTOBIpH&b=1043497&ct=1245723

Thinking aloud, my guess is that tough love works better on a man than it does on a woman.

 I might be wrong, and I stand to be corrected if that is the case, but I think the cases that Dobson had in mind were of husbands who were dragging their feet about making changes in their bad behaviour.
As an example, when the tough love strategy is applied to a husband involved in a dalliance with another woman, while at the same time he still wants to keep living with his wife, it forces him to choose. 
Or a wife who is an alcoholic, or a husband who is a gambler.
The tough love method would have given  an ultimatum. That shock treatment was expected to make him/her get real.

I'm not sure just how successful it is the other way, when a woman has lost interest in her marriage. I think the tough  love approach can only work when a spouse is faced with losing something they don't want to lose. Like losing the marriage and the children.

Most wives don't lose their children when they exit a marriage - they get custody so that has no clout - and if they don't care about their husband, or no longer love him, and have been scheming to get rid of him for some time, then if tough love raises the spectre of losing her husband she will jump at the chance. In other words, tough love would suit her, because it forces her hand, makes the decision for her, and helps her get rid of the husband she has already decided to discard.
It would only work if she did not want to lose the marriage.

My guess is that tough love works best where a couple both want to keep the family and marriage intact, but one spouse is sabotaging it with wrong actions .And in spite of every attempt by the other spouse to get it sorted, nothing gets done. Tough love forces the recalcitrant spouse to deal with those things that have not been addressed. But it presupposes both partners equally not wanting to lose the marriage. That is what gives tough love it's leverage.

Formerlyalpha,

 

Thank you for your continued posts, and your effort to help me understand.  I don’t think following the tough love principles exactly the way Dobson proposes is a good idea.  I do think I need to be strong and quit pleading for time or to go to counseling.  She tells me she sees me as guilt so she knows what she is doing is wrong.  I plan on going back home on Monday.  The kids are with grandma this weekend anyways (an activity planned months ago).  My counselor told me to say.  “I am not comfortable staying away anymore.  Its hard living in a hotel and being away from the kids.  I am back now and I don’t want to be gone anymore.  What do you propose?”  Is she asks me for more time I am to say “No that is just not going to work. Can you come up with another option?"  I am so afraid to do that, but that is part of letting her be in control and having my own boundaries. 

 

I also thought I about telling her something like this:

 

I have been through some tough moments since you have asked for space and talked about leaving.  My love for you is so strong that I thought I could not live without you.  When we got married I expected to stay together forever.  It is a great shock to see our marriage fall apart.  However as I have been going through these past days I have been doing some intense soul searching and even through this I have still been trying to force you to do something you don’t want to do.  This makes no sense at all.  When we first meet I am reminded that you pursed me at the start of our relationship.  I did not force you to date me by controlling you or making you feel guilty.  It was something you wanted without pressure from me.  I did not make you choose John over me by guilt or manipulation.  You did that all on your own.  Now you are saying you want your space and I can’t force you to spend time with me now just like I did not force you to date me in 1991.  So you are fee to have your space and do what you want to do.  I will accept your decision to separate.  You are free to go.  If we never spend time together again I will accept your decision.  This entire process has been painful, but I am going to make it.  My friends and God have been with me so far, and they will continue to support me in the future.  We had some wonderful times together.  You are one of 3 people in my life that have shown me unconditional love and the other two were grandparents.  You were my first real love and I will never forget the memories we shared.  I hope and pray that you will find happiness in the years ahead. 

 

 

In the final analysis, you have to decide what course of action to take. I'm reluctant to advise you to do this, or to do that.
There comes a point where the remaining spouse is right out of options to get any leverage. And you seem to be at that place.
 At that point, considering tough love, or an intervention, are about the only things left to try.

The intervention method, as developed and practiced by Family Dynamics, is something that can work if a sinful behaviour is destroying the marriage. In your case, there are complicating factors.
First, there is her father's death, and her mother's terminal illness. Normally, she  would turn to her husband for comfort at such a time. But when trauma comes, it can reveal the state of the marriage. If both have not been close, and nurturing each other, then to try and suddenly turn to one's spouse for comfort seems strange. If there is an existing rift between the two, then it's very unlikely. That then exposes the weakness of the relationship, and makes the rift seem even wider than normal.

It's possible that her father's death has simply let her realise just how bereft of comfort her marriage is. And if you have a history of having failed to provide emotional support for her, that would make it difficult for her to turn to you. So she feels adrift.
I can see why she feels she needs individual therapy to cope with her personal issues, before she gets involved in marriage counseling.

The second factor is her new female friend. I'm not sure what to make of that. Is that woman a christian? Is she married? Never been married? Is she divorced? Those are pertinent questions because as an older woman she assumes the place of a role model.

The way your wife is discarding her old friends hints at a carefully planned strategy. These things don't happen by chance. It may be done to enable her to justify leaving you, and to strengthen her for opting out of the marriage.  She does not have to give account to anyone who could oppose her decision. To put distance between her and family/friends makes it easier for her to ignore them.
It all ties in with what Ken Sande calls "The Myths of Divorce". She does not want to be reminded of reality, when she is riding on the myth about her marriage.

Because she is now employed by this woman, your wife is very much under her influence. There is a power imbalance in that relationship, even if  your wife does not see it. And to be holidaying with her is a bit over the top. This woman is completly new to her life. It's as if your wife is trying to trade in her old life for a completely different life, and this woman signifies that. This woman has no connections to any of your wife's family/friends, or to anything or anyone in her past, so to be fraternising with her is like turning a new page. A page where divorce is acceptable.

I would be careful about saying too much to your wife about approving of her leaving. If you say that she is free to go, she may just breath a sigh of relief, and interpret that as being O K by you. Then you can hardly complain if she leaves, or then try and argue that you want her back.
 I realise that no one can be forced to stay against their will, but that is a given anyway. The fact that you have already moved out for some days is enough of an indication that she is free to have her way. It goes without saying. So to spell it out to her may just send the wrong message.

If anything needs saying, I would think that it should be that it is not your desire for the marriage to end, that you love her, that you are sorry for your past sins, that you desire to rebuild your relationship with her, you want to be loyal to her and to your marriage vows given before God and your fellow humans. That puts the ball firmly in her court re any separation.

But to say you hope she finds happiness down the track somewhere, presumably without you, implies that you have caved into to her plans to leave the marriage and live an independent life..

You might consider adding that you want marriage counseling, and that if she was still intent on separating, you would like that separation to be therapeutic, and to be monitored by the counselor with a view to reconciliation, and not with a view to her seeing how she likes being apart from you.
 Because trying a separation to see how she likes it implies a lack of motivation towards marriage restoration.

How significant is this other guy to her plans to separate from you? Was she planning the separation before she met this guy? Or is he an integral part of her disenchantment with her marriage?

I'm not sure just how she became involved with this other guy. Did they meet at work? Did he initiate engaging with her? What were the circumstances that led her to give him her contact details? Were the reasons "innocent", or did she give him her ph number with the intent of keeping in touch with him because he made her "feel good"?
If the latter, she would have known that it was sinful to keep up the contact. That makes the following relevant to her.
Knowing the answers to the above questions will help with deciding what course of action to take. Because her repeating of how bad you have been to her fits quite perfectly into the self-delusion process posted below. She needs to keep emphasising your failings in order to rationalize her contact with this guy. From what you have shared about your wife, I would tick all 4 of those boxes.

I was going to post a link to the intervention methods of Family Dynamics, but the relevant article has disappeared from the web. So I gleaned some data from my archives. In detailing just how an intervention ought to be carried out, they present a lengthy explanation of the process of delusion that is always a feature of a marriage breakdown which involves a 3rd party.

Understanding The Process of Self-Delusion

    * The First Phase of Delusion--Rationalization
    * The Second Phase of Delusion—Projection
    * The Third Phase of Delusion—Repression
    * The Fourth Phase of Delusion—Altered Memory
  
Illustrating the Four Phases of Delusion
While we could choose any number of sins to illustrate how self-delusion works, the most common addictive sin we encounter in our work at FDI is an adulterous relationship.
( An emotional affair would also fit into this category because it has engaged the heart of a person, even if at that point it has not involved significant physical contact.)
Most of these relationships started out innocently enough. Usually a friend or a work colleague, so no defense barriers are erected, and neither sees the danger until it is too late. At that point they want the new relationship so don't want any defenses.
They move into Phase One - Rationalization. They subconsciously seek reasons to justify the relationship.Such as:

Sentiments like the following, either spoken or mentally rehearsed countless times, provide the budding sinner a kind of justification for the sin:
"My spouse doesn’t understand me"
"God wanted us to be together so we could be happy"
"You don’t know what it was like living in that marriage"
"I’ve studied my Bible and come to the conclusion that I’m not really married to my current spouse!"

Instead of being surprised to hear rationalizations, we should expect them. How could otherwise godly people sin repeatedly if they couldn’t find some way to rationalize the behavior?

As they move into Phase Two—Projection—the interaction between the addicted sinner and her lover intensifies. As she projects her subconscious negative feelings onto others, the addicted sinner eliminates relationships with friends and family, either reacting to their negative view of her situation or fearing they will negatively react in the future.

Her escalating involvement becomes so intense that the addicted sinner can no longer rationalize all her actions. She must move into Phase Three—Repression.
She may move rapidly from her original values and morals.  She may change her appearance and lifestyle.
When that happens, those changes may alter her into a different person, unlike anything she has ever been or thought she would be.

Phase Three evolves into Phase Four—Altered History. The addicted sinner’s transgressions exist only in favorable light: "God’s forgiven me for what I’ve done" or "I only did that because of how difficult it is to live with you." Her memories of the spouse’s shortcomings carry a much different hue: "You’ve done so much damage to me" or "If everyone knew how you really are."

This deluded person has no hope of rescue unless godly people intervene and intervene quickly.
That is why intervention needs to be done. But you have to find the right people to do it.

Quote by C-555: "She started texting this guy a lot and I confronted her and she admitted to it being inappropriate, but only the start of an emotional affair.  She said it was wrong and she would stop.  According the “Love Must Be Tough” principals (very simplified) I should tell her she is free to go and open the cage for her. "

Brother C-555,  it is a very positive that she sees the contact with this man has been "wrong" (a moral conviction) and that she "would stop" (an act of the will to stop the sin.)   I think this is an answer to our prayers of protection for your marriage to at least not have the competition of another man. Thank God!!
Yet, the fact she did yield to the temptation for a short time means she was vulnerable and we need to continue to pray for her.

At first I was thinking it is better for her to have an older motherly female friend, but the truth is, not all older women are a good or Godly influence.  I heard marriage-ministry speaker Jimmy Evans say once that many marriages dissolve as a result of a spouse's interaction with friends or coworkers who steer them the wrong direction.  We need to pray that this woman be removed from your wife's life if she is an ungodly influence and a time-draining hinderance to resolving your marriage issues. 

On the positive side, she is willing to get personal grief counseling. But again, who is the grief counselor?  Is he/she a Christian who can really help in the healing process?  We need to pray over this interaction also.

It sounds like her sister and family as a whole would be the type to strongly support your marriage problems working out.  If this family is typically close and she continues much longer with this emotional distance from them, they may take the next step beyond asking you what's wrong. They may decide to come together and approach her directly (like an intervention), questioning why she is so detached from them and asking about her attitude and motives toward them and possibly the marriage.  Maybe her friends will not settle for being left  behind either and express concern for her that would result in her growing out of her current state.  So let's pray for her family and friends, that they would be a positive influence.

I am thinking of your mother-in-law battling cancer.  How can you be a strength for her and your wife and family in this situation?  What you choose to do out of the love in your heart, can positively impact the future of everyone involved, including your marriage.  I just took my daughter to an alternative healthcare expert on chronic illnesses, and listened to a cancer patient in the waiting room. Besides three teams of healthcare providers she has, each offering support in a different needed way, she also wishes she had at home a secretary, housekeeper, a cook, someone to run errands when she is energyless, etc.  What can you do to be a blessing?  Many people with cancer do not know that there are wonderful alternative healthcare things they can do to overcome cancer, even when the medical view believes there is no hope. If you think your mother-in-law would be open to these options, do your research and present these to her and offer practical help. To get you started, I tell you that cancer cannot live in a body that is well oxygenated and there are ways to do that. She may need detoxification and supplement supports. Is she going to the Cancer Treatment Center of America?   The clinic that I'm using now is www.hansacenter.com-- Christian doctor, trained in Biological Medicine and Energy-medicine-- they help cancer patients too-- it is marvelously a place for miracles!!!  My daughter is getting miracles after 10 years!!  Praise God for this!

I hope this helps. Let me know if I can help further. But you are on the right track in seeing the truth about yourself and making changes. You can't control her into loving you through tough love or any other method-- you just let God's love flow through you and see what He will do.

God bless you, brother,
~Renae

Confused555,

I've been following your story from the beginning and praying for you as well. Saturday morning when I woke up, you were the first thing on my mind. Your situation and most importantly, your wife. The thoughts that came to my mind are (and please don't hate me for saying this).

First thing, you have to stop yielding to her every command. She is on a power trip right now, trying to "take back" the control she believes you had during the past years of your marriage. As a woman, she will not respect your for doing this. She will not respect your for doing everything she says because she knows you're doing out of fear of losing her. That is not the position ANY person should be in, husband or wife. The difference between her controlling and your controlling is, you didn't realize you were controlling her. I read your first post, and she had to explain things in detail in order for you to understand her new opinion of you. Not to mention, you gave other examples of how she had the opportunity to "defend" herself or give her own opinion during those "controlling" moments, but she never did. How were you to know she felt that way? You didn't, until now. What she's doing is pure munipulation. It's intentional and yields bad fruit.

Second, you have changed. She noticed you've changed, but is still unmoving and it actually seems like it may be turning her away from you even further when she realizes your attempts to make her happy. She is not right at all. She is acting as judge and jury without giving you a fair trial. She has convicted you of a crime, you didn't realize you commited. You're serving the time, and she doesn't even care. You understand what you've done in the past, but for her to make this a reason to the end the marriage or separate is unacceptable. She is accountable for her actions also.

Third, she asked you to leave. As if this is the only solution to her problem. And I say it's her problem, because she is the one unwilling to forgive. She is so upset about her mother and father (rightly so), that she is taking all of this hurt out on you (and her friends and extended family). I would not leave! I know that you have gone to the hotel for a few days, but that should be all. She is the one with the problem, she is the one trying to escape the resolution. If she feels that strongly, she should be the one to leave, not you. She knows what she's doing is wrong that's why she's isolated herself from everyone who loves her. She can't face the truth right now because she knows she too is at fault, and it's easier to blame others for our mistakes.

Last, I think she feels insecure. Not insecure as in the way she feels about herself, but about being loved. Having that safety net of people she's always known to be there for her. With the loss of her father and now potentially her mother, she's lost and uncovered. I truly think you need to reaffirm her with your love. I saw your post about what you want to say and that is EXACTLY what I was thinking. Tell her that you love her more than anything and want her to be your wife. That you are there for her during this difficult time and you will not leave! That you married her for better and for worst. That despite that fact she has emotionally separated herself from you, joined herself to another man emotionally, and asked you to leave your home, that you are still willing to be her husband. However, you will not continue to be mistreated. You will not continue to live in fear of her next decision. Instead, you will continue working on yourself, you will continue loving her and when she is ready to talk, you will be there with open ears and an open heart, because that's what a Godly husband is supposed to do. (Or something to that effect)

In response to your new post, in my opinion, this is the type of "tough love" a woman in her situation needs. She needs to realize her wrongdoings and stop punishing you for yours.

I'll reiterate what I've said a couple of times before - I think you are WAY over-thinking all of this.

I think you are under the pretense that there are things you can do to 'fix' all of this and somehow cause a dramatic change in your wife's thinking.

I understand what you're thinking, and why.  I know what it all feels like.

But you can't do anything except BE changed.  Live each day showing the changes and strive to exemplify the man you ultimately want to be as you continue to grow and change. 

Your wife is free to do what she wants to do, regardless of whether you decide you're practicing tough love.

Your goal is a Godly, honorable and loving restoration of your marriage, correct?

Then every choice you make should be the one that would move you in that direction.  Sometimes the Godly, honorable and loving choice will be to act completely selfless; sometimes it will be to stand your ground even against what your wife says.  Sometimes it WILL require the "tough love" approach of letting go and not trying to hold so tight. 

Dobson's tough-love approach isn't an *alternative* to biblical Christ-like Love; it is the action of biblical Christ-like Love - those "hard-to-do" selfless acts like giving someone space.

Some people view the tough-love approach as akin to the moral high ground.  In some cases, there may be some truth to that.  There may be one spouse who is objectively standing on more solid biblical grounds and the history and current circumstances of the situation warrant the "ultimatum" that some people believe tough-love to be.

I don't intend to be hurtful or to offend - but I fail to understand why you believe you are in the position that would validate you taking a tough-love stance with your wife.

---

Love God; Love people.

Seek first to understand before you seek to be understood.

Step 1: Toast the Poptart.

I'm still in the process of analyzing the exact state of your marriage, based on the information you have been drip-feeding over the various posts in this and other threads here.

If there were a single issue in your marriage, finding the way to go would be easier. But, as if often the case, there have been several contributing factors. These factors may have been interacting with each other, each being propelled by the other. This is how it seems to shape up, at least how I see it.
 ( Bear in mind, this is based on what you have written. If there are things you have not yet divulged, the final picture I have could alter.)

1) Your wife entered marriage expecting to be loved, nurtured and made secure. She did not get that from you.
2) Once married, you continued to act as if you were single, making decisions without taking her opinions into account.
3) Consequently, while you were relatively happy in your marriage, your wife was increasingly unhappy.
4) After concealing that unhappiness for many years, recent events have conspired to allow her to divulge that to you.
5) If your wife felt disempowered in her marriage, it has taken these events to give her the courage to risk crossing you.
6) In order to gain that courage, she has had to get it from outside her normal set of relationships, from this woman and the guy.
7) Her ambivalence towards the marriage is both a casualty and a consequence of the foregoing.

The above summary makes it difficult to use the tough love approach, or the intervention method. The Intervention Method is designed for when a specific sin is destroying the marriage. The tough love is similar. Of course in every marriage there can be sins, but the sins that need that kind of specific targeting are "big" sins, such as an affair.
It could even be argued that your sins, i.e. your "sins of omission" in not nurturing your wife, have been the dominant sin, which in turn have spawned her response to you.
( I'm not trying to "bash" you in saying this, just trying to be objective. I know you are full of recriminations over your failures, so I'm not trying to add to that.)

Part of her response has been to seek nurture elsewhere.
Perhaps that is where the other guy comes into the picture. He was there at the "right" time, when she was feeling unloved at home?

I would add though, that when a 3rd party is involved, it does not matter how that came about, or how it can be justified, it is such a threat that it has to be dealt with. That is the one area where an "Intervention" may be necessary.

Last, this was in my inbox this morning from Family Life.
www.familylife.com/site/apps/nlnet/content3.aspx?c=dnJHKLNnFoG&b=3842485&ct=7601609

You could show this article to your wife, - if she is willing to read anything you supply - because it contains the testimony of 2 wives who found hope in spite of the marriage hurts they felt. Maybe print it out and give it to her to read. Note how one wife got very depressed when she started to look at her marriage, it seemed even worse than she had thought it was. But that was the catalyst to keep pressing on until things got better.

Alpha, the 1-7 points you wrote are very helpful to consider "how did I get here".

Then after repentance to God, wife, and forgive himself, then he now considers  how to correct the present reality.

I think his wife needs to hear that he is aware of those 7 points. His awareness and the fact that God is at work in him, her, and the marriage covenant is grounds for her to have renewed hope.  I waited the same and more years for my husband to gain awareness of his control disease and do something about it, but instead he simply saw that he was hurting me, quit counseling saying he can't change, and he filed for divorce. C-555, you aren't doing that, thank God!!! So if I could talk to your wife, I'd say "hang on"!!!  What a blessed gal you are that your marriage has a chance because your husband now has understanding so there's hope!! " 

The counseling and changes C-555 is doing plus the counseling she is getting are a process, but you both must stick with it!!  This marriage is becoming far better than ever before. You two can have the marriage of your dreams and as God designed if you don't lose heart and give up. It is soooo worth it to stick with the process!!  Every marriage goes through hard times in one way or another, not to break it but to build it.  Keep faith and keep pressing forward toward the PRIZE, and God will be glorified in this too.  And pleasing Him is supposed to be our main motivation for all that we do.

An update…

I asked her to consider letting me stay at the house in the basement on Sunday, and on Monday night she said I could so I staid at home.  She went to her counseling session and while she did not feel it was positive she really opened up to me when she got home.  She started telling me in details about ways that I hurt her.  I listened intently.  At one point she was visibly shaking and rocking back and forth as she described how she used to pack my lunches for work and that on some days I did not eat them and how sad that made her.  It was good to hear her point of view on the situation.  She had never mentioned some of these issues to me before, but to see the way she was shaking, crying and rocking I could tell there was a lot of hurt.  She went on to explain many other hurts.  I tried to see it through her eyes and understand what she saw.  I did not understand everything, but listened quietly.  Afterwards she acted more open towards me.  She told me about her sister and how her sister did not understand what she was going though.  I held her and she fell asleep in my arms.  I was glad she was able to release some of the hurt.  I don’t know what today will bring, but I hope this was a step in a positive direction.        

 

And comments on all your helpful posts…

Formerlyalpha,

I don’t think the new female friend is a positive role model.  She is married, but not happily.  They are spending a lot of time together and their relationship is strange.  She buys my wife dinner and clothes.  She has given her a job.  She is moving her existing employee’s schedules around so my wife can work the schedule and positions she wants.  Her son is the person that my wife was texting.  She gave my wife a dozen red roses to cheer my wife up. 

 

My wife told me when she talks to old friends they usually are shocked and doubt that she has been this unhappy.  She feels like they don’t understand the pain she is in and complains that they don’t see it from her point of view.

 

Her sister thinks and I wonder if this new lady and her son are a replacement family for my wife.  It would satisfy a lot of her dreams… More kids (the widowed man she is texting has two kids that my children play very well with and my wife always wanted a larger family), a mother in law / mother that she gets along with (my wife despises my parents).  A close family (this family does everything together the sons all work for the dad and they vacation together and get along real well) I know that is a reach, but her sister swears that is what is going on.        

 

I think the other guy came up after our troubles.  My counselor related it this way.  Imagine you are starving and you come along a piece of dirty bread lying on the ground.  You would probably pick it up and eat it when normally you would not touch it.  I think that is closer to the situation, but I don’t know for sure. 

 

My wife and the texting man were in contact because of the relationship between our children and his kids.  The kids spent the nights at each others houses several times.  My wife always had sympathy for this guy because his wife died suddenly and he was left with 5 adopted children and one blood child.  After one year of trying to keep 6 kids he gave up 4 of the adopted kids because he could not keep up with it. 

 

And from your other post…. I was not trying to follow the exact “tough love” principles that Dobson talks about.  I was referring only to the loosening of the chains of guilt, begging and sadness.  Here is what I said to her…

I have been through some tough moments since you have asked for space and talked about leaving.  My love for you is so strong that I thought I could not live without you.  When we got married I expected to stay together forever.  It is a great shock to see our marriage fall apart.  However as I have been going through these past days I have been doing some intense soul searching and even through this I have still been trying to force you to do something you don’t want to do.  This makes no sense at all.  When we first meet I am reminded that you pursed me at the start of our relationship.  I did not force you to date me by controlling you or making you feel guilty.  It was something you wanted without pressure from me.  I did not make you choose anyone over me by guilt or manipulation.  You did that all on your own.  Now you are saying you want your space and I can’t force you to spend time with me now just like I did not force you to date me in 1990.  So you are fee to have your space and do what you want to do.  This entire process has been painful, but I am going to make it.  My friends and god have been with me so far, and they will continue to support me in the future.  We had some wonderful times together.  You were my first real love and I will never forget the memories we shared.

 

 

Renae,

The counselors we have used so far have all been Christian counselors, and when my wife went looking for her personal grief counselor she asked to make sure they were NOT a Christian counselor.  Her family has been very supportive of rebuilding our marriage.  Her sister has mentioned coming down to talk to my wife and meet the older woman who she is spending all her time with.  She has difficulty getting down to us because she is caring for their mother who has to be taken to radiation every day.

From your second post:  I am not going to give up.  I am ready for the long road ahead.  I am just hoping she will join me on the journey.    

 

Mzjh20,

I want to stop being a doormat.  My counselor recommended I start being assertive with the small things and work on it from there.  She has taken control, and right now calls all the shots.  I tell her every day that I lover her (except for a few days this weekend when I was in the hotel). 

 

Holten,

Your posts are not offending or hurtful.  I appreciate the sounding board of all of you. I understand what you’re saying.  I don’t expect there to be a magic thing to say or do that will fix anything.  It will take time and willingness on both our parts.  Right now it is a one way street.  The reason why I keep grasping for advice is I have been thrown for a loop.  What I did before is not going to work.  I have to learn a new way to think and act.  What I was trying to say about tough love is that I realized I had been begging her to give it more time and kept asking her to stay.  I realized those were chains of guilt I was wrapping around her.  I have stopped doing that and it seems to have helped.  I want to restart my marriage not restore it.  We were both unhappy for different reasons in our past relationship.  I realize the potential we have and would like to reach it.  I have also been a doormat for the last few weeks.  I don’t want to be walked on anymore, but for me I have to learn to be assertive and not controlling.  Right now she interprets my assertive comments as controlling.  Just two days ago I asked her to consider allowing me to stay in the basement instead of the hotel.  I said I was uncomfortable staying away from the kids.  I asked her to think about it and get back with me with what she thought.  The next night when I brought the kids home and got ready to go to the hotel she asked “I thought you were staying here.”  I said that if it that was OK with her then I would stay in the basement.  She said it was fine, and so I am now back in the house.  However it really confused me that in her mind she heard me say “I am going to stay in the basement”  My counselor said that this is probably a filter that she passes everything though in her head that tries to figure what I want by my statements.  That made a lot of sense to me because there have been several things in our relationship where she thought I had demanded something or wanted something, and all I had done was simply stating a feeling.  I know I can’t worry about how she interprets my feelings, but until she steps out of the passive mindset I feel like I need to choose my words and actions very carefully.  Therefore I feel like a doormat from time to time.  I don’t know if it is right, but I figure until she gets counseling to help to deal with being passive it’s my best hope for saving my marriage.

 

        

 

My initial reaction to the news that the woman and the guy are connected was to exclaim "the plot thickens!". It gets more complicated by the day.
Of course this woman is angling for her son and your wife to become an item. That is what is driving her.
I am being drawn to the conclusion that this woman and her son are enemies of your marriage. It's not rocket science. It's the only view that makes sense of her unusual influence over your wife.

In drawing that conclusion I'm relying on an understanding of human nature. He has no woman, and he is texting your wife, who has admitted to you that her emotions were engaged with this guy. That equates to him being a substitute for you. His mother is not opposing that dalliance, but by her cosying up to your wife is basically welcoming her into the family. All that remains for this woman to achieve is to see your wife become her daughter in law. That is her objective, if I have any understanding of human nature.

And what about the guy? Why is he investing time in your wife? He knows she is married to you, so if he had any christian credibility, any sense of morality, he would regard your wife as out of bounds to him.  In saying that, I don't have any hard evidence that he is pursuing your wife. He may be, but you have not said that.

So where does this woman stand in relation to the christian faith? If she were truly christian, she would be working tooth and nail to broker a reconciliation between you and your wife. But on that score the silence is deafening.
Any way, that's my take on the situation.

Now what I'm going to say next may seem like a contradiction of what I said in my last post, but that is not my intention. I'm simply opening a different drawer, one which contains different information. But still relevant.

I've quoted from Ken Sande and Joe Beam, both of whom have been guests of James Dobson on FotF. So they are bona fide ministries. Ken outlines the myths of divorce, which nearly all those pushing to quit a marriage subscribe to. Joe Beam deals with the process of delusion that necessarily accompanies a divorce action, where that action is allied to a love interest outside the marriage.

What is the difference between a separation and a divorce? Not much. If divorce be compared to a highway, then separation is the ramp onto that highway. And those who are urging separation know that right well. They may pretend to their spouse that it is just a trial or experimental separation. But if there is a 3rd party lurking somewhere in the background that is just a subterfuge like window dressing to allay the fears of the one being left.
Where there is no 3rd party in  the offing, it may be that a separation can be a straightforward device for sorting out the relationship. But the existence of that 3rd person puts the separation into the category of artifice.

Ken Sande wrote; "I have noticed over the years that Christians who are in the process of seeking a divorce often use the same set of reasons..."  Such as: " I don't love you", and "the love has gone out of this marriage". Christians have to have a reason. It's the only way they can silence the voice of their conscience.

Joe Beam pointed to the need to rationalize.Your wife is involved with a man she is not married to.  This rationalization process is to silence the conscience, and to enable her to live with herself without suffering psychological stress. She needs to convince herself  that what she is doing to you is not wrong.

Next, she projects the problems onto others. She is not at fault, others are. Her husband is controlling. The church people are controlling. Any one who might point out her sin is to be attacked, or rejected.  That is why she does NOT want a christian counselor. She believes she is standing up for herself, even standing for the truth. Anyone who tries to tell her otherwise is just plain wrong.
She has to justify her actions. So she eliminates family and former friends, people who have, or who might disapprove of her behaviour. She is saying her old friends are shocked at what she is telling them about her pain. So she cultivates a  new set of friends who don't criticize what she is doing.

Then she has to blot out memories of her own failings, because that enables her to keep pressing on her chosen pathway. To admit to herself that she has done wrong would weaken her resolve. That must never be allowed.

Finally, the history of the marriage gets rewritten. Her husband has been so awful, she just cannot ever consider living with him anymore. Every time she thinks about her marriage it becomes worse. It gets labeled as so bad that it can never ever be restored. This is why whenever she attempts counseling, or in any way considers working to improve her marriage it has the opposite effect, of casting the marriage as a disaster, and you as an ogre.
The worse she can paint the marriage, and the more sinful she can describe her husband, the less sinful it is for her to leave. In fact she sees that she is doing the right thing by leaving. That her old friends don't believe she has ever been that unhappy is evidence of the way she is embellishing her hurts. The marriage has to end. Mission accomplished!. And with a clear conscience.

I see all the above in your wife.

This post is not intended to skew your view of your wife, or to alter what you are doing to connect with her. But it is a perspective based on her involvement with this guy. As such it fits all the things you have been saying about your wife. When faced with a set of circumstances that don't make sense, one has to look for a key that gives some kind of clarity. I see the above things staring out at me from the data you have posted about her.

Whatever else gets tried in your attempts to bring about a better relationship with her, as long as she has this fraternization with him, it will likely sabotage it. Yet you may have to tread carefully. As things stand at the moment, if you gave her an ultimatum, she just might decide to leave. She may need to be weaned off him gradually, as you become more trustworthy, more affirming of her, etc.

A complicating feature is that she is working for his mother, so that throws them into regular contact. Ideally, she ought to leave working for his mother. But that would probably be too much to ask right now. It would likely backfire on you.
 

Tonight started bad and ended worse. We had my sons parent teacher conference tonight and he got bad marks in writhing and reading. They said it was below acceptance level for moving up to the next grade. He still has all year to fix it but it was a big blow for us.  He has struggled each year and my wife blames me because she wanted to hold him back his first year of school and I did not. We decided (in my mind) that we would let his preschool teacher decide.  I do remember her agreeing to that, but I am sure that her perspective would be different. The preschool tearcher said he was ready so we enrolled him. My wife blamed me for that decision every time our son has trouble or gets bad grades.   So tonight she was distant because she said the conference brought the control issues to the front again.  I let her fume and did not say much.  She said this just brings up more bad memories about the controlling issues.  Then at 9PM her older friend called and said she was going to take some stuff to her sons house (the texting man) and my wife said she sounded drunk and so she would take her to his house so she did not drive drunk. This kicked my trust issues into overdrive.  I did not say anything but she said I can tell you’re mad but I don't want my friend driving drunk. I said "Its just" and then stopped I did not say anything else she kept prying but I just got quiet. Then her friend called her back and said her husband would take her so my wife did not go. I could not believe the whole situation.  In my mind this older lady was trying to drive a spike between us.  I did not know what to say I was trying to calm myself and my wife could tell I was bothered she waited till the kids were asleep and she told me that what just happened she felt was a controlling situation and we needed to talk about it.  I told her that I just thought it was inappropriate for her to go to his house at night.  She said she just did not want her friend driving drunk.  I said it’s just going to take me time to be able to handle situations like this, and that I need to work on my trust issues.  She said something about me not trusting her and it just won't work. I told her we both need to work on rebuilding trust. That set her off she said she has 18 years of things not to trust me for but her texting this was only 2 weeks long, and how they don’t even compare.  I don't know what to say to her. She was very upset and kept saying you can't change you won't ever trust me etc. I tried to explain that I did believe her I just have trust issues I need to work on.  I have never been comfortable with her interactions with other men.  She has never lied to me or done anything to make me doubt her, and she is very outgoing.  In the past I have said some of the things she was doing were inappropriate.  Inappropriate as in she went over to a single father’s house and stayed and visited several times while his and our son played.  I don’t know how to feel about those things.  I don’t know if it is something I need to deal with or if it is truly inappropriate and should stop.  I feel like if the roles where reversed she would not like it.  She did say later that she understood why I would not trust her but at the same time she does not act like she means it.  It ended on a sour note with her saying that it was a bad idea for me to come back home.

I don't understand why she gets so upset with me when she does not think I trust her. How can I be 100 trusting when she has not even said what went on between her and this guy.  It is such a touchy subject that I am afraid to ask her anything about the texts, and I figure when she is willing to work on our marriage that is something that I am going to want to know.  Why is it such a deal breaker that I have some doubts?  I know she would go ape poop if she found out I was texting any girl about anything not to mention 60 some messages in a two day period.   My coworkers are 95% male and she even gives me crap when I get an email from any woman at work when the email is 100% work related. 

C-555,

In your last post, it goes back to everything Formerlyalpha said (of which I completely agree) about your wife's current situation. She is in denial of everything good and does not want to face her own issues. She will not admit to her own wrongdoings, so everytime you have a concern with something she's doing, she's going to throw it back and turn it around on you. She's on defense and she will do whatever it takes to come out "winning."

You are very much right in being uncomfortable with your wife going out at night. If this older woman knew better, she wouldn't be driving drunk at night anyway. And why didn't she just ask her husband the first time? Why did she call your wife? Again, here I agree with Formerlyalpha. This older woman is no good for your wife and your marriage. She is trying to gain a daughter-in-law and has no respect for you and your marriage.

Your wife's comment about "it was not a good thing for you to come back home" is so that she can continue being unaccountable for her wrongdoings. If you're there and pointing out these things, it makes her face them. If you're gone, she can do whatever she wants whenever she wants without answering to anyone (like a teenager). Know that you're being there is a good thing and you SHOULD NOT go away anymore. This problem in your marriage has to be dealt with and it would not do any good for either one of you to walk away from it. These crises situations require attention and togetherness. Over time, things will get better when both parties are willing, but this is all still new.

It will be difficult for you to trust her and she should not expect you to in the MIDDLE of this. She has given you reasons not to trust her and then balks when you admit to it. This is not something you have to deal with on your own. This is not an issue YOU have. It is a problem that was created by her actions and the two of you will have to work on it TOGETHER.